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 Cracked Engine Case!

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steveonfarm
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PostSubject: Cracked Engine Case!   Sat 26 Jan 2013, 14:37

Dear Silverwing community,

I find myself in a terrible dilemma!

I have just been informed by my Honda Dealer that the reason that all my engine oil was lying in a puddle beneath my bike in the snow, is that I have a cracked engine case! They estimate the repair costs to be between €1,500 and €2,000!

I have only had my SW 400cc for 1.5 years for which I paid €4,000 and it currently has 22,000km on the clock. Now I am torn between spending a large part of my meager savings on this huge repair or saying goodbye to my short lived love affair with the Silverwing Sad

The Honda Dealer did hint at the possibility of a specialist repair that he would ask another mechanic about which seems to involve the "filling or welding" (His English isn't perfect!), of the crack, but that this may not be possible.

Do any of you good folk out there know whether this can be done, and if it would be a safe option to proceed with?

Any thoughts and/or opinions would be much appreciated.

SteVe


Last edited by steveonfarm on Sat 26 Jan 2013, 14:48; edited 1 time in total
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Waspie
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Sat 26 Jan 2013, 14:48

Dilemma indeed.

No help regards the welding I'm afraid but may be worth having a look at ebay for a replacement engine OR check any dealers to see if they have any engines lying around that may provide a donor case for you innards!!!

I would imagine that Aluminium, (assuming that is what the case is!) welding would be a specialised technique and usually with 'specialised comes - expensive)

Hope you manage a economical repair SteVe!
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micbusathens
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Sat 26 Jan 2013, 15:49

What about warranty.Its valid for two years .

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steveonfarm
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Sat 26 Jan 2013, 15:55

No Warranty!

It was a private buy.

Also, I only have basic insurance, so no recompense there Sad

SteVe
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KurtPerthWA
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Sat 26 Jan 2013, 16:57

Welding is possible in most cases. Be careful though as some of these alloys contain magnesium.


If you strip it down youself, you could save plenty, if not get a few quotes to have it stripped down. Have you got any pictures of the damage? Any ideas how it happened? Can it be epoxied?
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DarthJ
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Sat 26 Jan 2013, 19:24

If it is cracked, Waspie's suggestion of ebay for a replacement engine is probably the best. You can replace the whole drive train for probably less than what your dealer (stealer) wants for the repair (that may not work, for me, a cracked block is scrap metal, don't trust repairs there.)
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DarthJ
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Sat 26 Jan 2013, 19:26

http://www.ebay.com/itm/05-fsc600d-honda-silverwing-fsc-600-engine-motor-/160874716696?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2574e15e18&vxp=mtr

5 minutes brought this example of a whole engine for $400 US. If you replace the engine, you can strip the old one for parts that are still good and bam, you got spare parts just in case.

A little more searching finds one in Europe for 500 Euros:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.ebay.at/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Debay%2Bin%2Baustria%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DRbV%26tbo%3Dd%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=fRIEUYj2LNOHqwHYnICoDg&ved=0CDgQ7gEwAA

(Had to use Google translate to figure out what it was saying.)

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micbusathens
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Sat 26 Jan 2013, 19:34

Now Darthj gave an idea to replace your 400 engine with an 600 cc.I'm not sure but it probably fits
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DarthJ
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Sat 26 Jan 2013, 19:44

Oops, guess I didn't see the 400 there. But hell, if it would fit, ramp it up!

But here's a 400 engine in Italy for 700 Euros:

http://www.ebay.at/itm/Motore-HONDA-Silver-Wing-400-06-09-Engine-Motor-/160926738871?pt=Motorrad_Kraftradteile&hash=item2577fb29b7#ht_2486wt_1139
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mick
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Sat 26 Jan 2013, 20:32

hi SteVe
the crack on the engine
is it just at at the sump or somewhere else near by?

or is the crack at a bearing or some stress place on the engine?
ideally if you have a photo of it?

as if its not near a stressed area or some vital point can you not just repair it with BELZONA or DEVCON

or a local engineers who can TiG weld it?

As these are for alloy repairs
got a mate who does gearboxes which he uses devcon quite a lot if gearbox casings are cracked or small bits missing from them
(if too bad he gets them TiG welded)

i am into the vespa scene here in the uk a lot of the guys use this kind of repairs on their scooters which some have been going for years
some you can drill and retap as good as new likes of JB WELD

but another question is
HOW DID IT CRACK in the first place and what was the cause of it?
as no point of repairing it if its something internally thats has failed

hope you get it sorted
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steveonfarm
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Sat 26 Jan 2013, 22:47

Thank you all so much for your speedy replies and suggestions, especially mick with your BELZONA, DEVCON, and TiG Weld solutions, none of which I have ever heard of before! I will certainly relay these options to my mechanic for consideration ..............

With regards to your query as to how the engine cracked in the first place; the short answer is "I have no idea". However, I have my suspicions which relate as follows: Last week in Vienna we had some serious snow fall which made it difficult to park up my bike after a long days teaching around the city. I ended up leaving the bike behind a local supermarket (completely legally I should add!), and more snow continued to fall which meant I couldn't use my SW for a couple of days. When I returned to the bike a couple of days later, it had been moved about 3 meters round the corner!! God knows how they achieved this with the steering lock on! And when I say they, I am referring to the delivery guys in their trucks who stock up the supermarket each morning. Now my bike will have in no way impaired the access of one such truck, but if 2 such vehicles arrived at the same time they would have had problems, and this is what I suspect happened. I think that the only way they could have shifted my bike around the corner with all the snow and ice around would have been by seriously manhandling my SW (possibly with metal poles wedged under the bike: just a theory!), causing the damage to the underside of the engine casing in the process! Of course I can't prove this so any attempt to gain some legal solution would I fear be futile!

The damage itself seems to be close to one of the center stand mounts, so I assume this is what would be called the oil sump?

Anyway, thank you all again for your sympathy and support, and any further suggestions will of course be warmly received and avidly read Smile

SteVe
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mick
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Sat 26 Jan 2013, 23:04

hi steve
maybe they dragged the scooter still on the stand or something sliding it on the snow or a board maybe even a pallet truck?
you never know ??
as you said pity where not any cctv cameras about

belzona and the devcon are used for aluminium
it comes as a 2 part kit and can vary the mix of it depending on setting time and how cold/warm it is
when using it best to rough up the applied areas so it has a key to bite onto
and once it applied can make smooth finish if you prefer using a solution of brake cleaner or similar

but if you say its near the sump and center stand so that it does not stress another area be god to get it TiG welded
but hard to say without actually seeing it

even if its TiG welded and is not oil tight can use the belzona or devcon to seal it


will have a look at my own next time in the garage to see if can imagine the place


i would think the belzona maybe more popular
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tinman
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Sun 27 Jan 2013, 00:38

You said that the oil leak is around the sump ,pump .Did you feel with your hand to see if any damage to the metal. If no sine of impact,Its possible that the pump o rings got damage and only needs to be replace . Its worth tacking a look. Its to bad your not in the Ottawa area There is a complete Swing , with Motor in good shape minus body works for $ 500.00.
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steveonfarm
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Sun 27 Jan 2013, 01:45

The Honda Dealers did actually photograph the damage showing quite a major crack in the casing which they showed me on their computer. I will get them to post these on to me and try to display them in this forum to give everyone a better idea of the extent of the damage. ................

SteVe
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tinman
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Sun 27 Jan 2013, 02:01

Seing photos of the damage might be able to see how and if it can be repair with minimal cost .
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steveonfarm
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Mon 28 Jan 2013, 23:04

Here my friends (assuming I've mastered this photo insertion business), are two photos of my cracked engine casing! What do you think? Repairable?





Thanks Guys!

SteVe
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micbusathens
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Mon 28 Jan 2013, 23:20

If I'm right and this is the center stand assembly some violent force caused that.....Either an obstacle in the road with center stand closed...or some heavy load or force at the "open" position.Too wide to be welded JMO
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micbusathens
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Mon 28 Jan 2013, 23:27

....and thank heaven you're safe.All leaking oil must have drenched your rear tire.The best solution has to do with your peace of mind
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tinman
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Mon 28 Jan 2013, 23:41

It look like it broke where the center stand bolts on to the casing .you will have to remove the stand for a better look.Lay your scooter on its side preferably on a table for better access to do repairs . I would remove some tupperware to make the work more accessible.The part seams to be completly separated. A good welder could weld it .Because it is in corner location ,I would repair it with JB weld known as liquid aluminum ,you might find it under a other name. If you chose to do the repairs your self you need ro remove the center stand ,take more pics before you go any farther.
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Waspie
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Tue 29 Jan 2013, 00:15

Looks like the crack emanates from the centre stand bolt!! As was mentioned above, looks like it had had some sort of accident/impact - quite a force too looking at how wide that crack is.

I'm no expert but the crack looks too big for repair. Time to start scouring the Interweb for a replacement casing!!!!

If I had been responsible for the damage I would be angry, having someone else responsible would make me incensed!! Hope you manage a cost effective repair.
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tinman
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Tue 29 Jan 2013, 01:30

You said that you parked by a loading zone .It was possibly moved by a fork lift. A tare down replacement if you can find the parts and have the work done would be the best but costly .A replacement motor would be faster fix. It all depends on what you can afford to pay .I have done and seen many aluminum casing repairs done with good results on industrial machinery that needed a quick fix that replacement parts were not available .
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KurtPerthWA
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Tue 29 Jan 2013, 03:14

WT*.. The centre stand is mounted on the alloy engine casings?

What have you got to lose? Dump the centre stand and see if the broken off piece actually fits back onto the maincase It is possible it is just hanging there on the centre stand bolt and can be reset using the "chemical fix "temporarily till you can get it fixed properly. The stand bolt could be bent too. Do not put the stand back on if you do manage to patch this.
There is a lesson here for all of us. Mind what you scrape the stand on. I have clipped speed humps and curbs too. even worse with a passenger.
Ask at the store if they have camera footage of the night... you never know, it may show the way it was damaged with possible identification of the perpetrators.
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Tue 29 Jan 2013, 19:24

I would suggest as, Tinman has J.B. Weld, only in the putty stick if you can get it. I just finished repairing the rear shaft drive, as the rear wheel somehow worked loose, and the wheel was catching the rear brake disc and the parking brake support arm. I only noticed when cleaning the wheel. A goove had been cut into the rear wheel drive shaft, maybe 1/4 inch deep, and i filled it in with "Quicksteel" Epoxy resin putty. I looked for J.B.Weld but none was available, this Quicksteel is supposed to be the same stuff. As someone else said what have you got to lose. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Tue 29 Jan 2013, 19:38

My engine recently died and the shop here in Woodstock found me a used one for 350 dollars and another 690 in labor charges to swap it out. They are not a dealer but a private shop which is what you might want to find for this job.
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Wed 30 Jan 2013, 01:16

Old Limey wrote:
I would suggest as, Tinman has J.B. Weld, only in the putty stick if you can get it. I just finished repairing the rear shaft drive, as the rear wheel somehow worked loose, and the wheel was catching the rear brake disc and the parking brake support arm. I only noticed when cleaning the wheel. A goove had been cut into the rear wheel drive shaft, maybe 1/4 inch deep, and i filled it in with "Quicksteel" Epoxy resin putty. I looked for J.B.Weld but none was available, this Quicksteel is supposed to be the same stuff. As someone else said what have you got to lose. Smile

Have you checked the splines in the rear wheel to see if they were damaged as well? My friend's rear wheel came loose and was wobbling because the axle spacer had not replaced the when the tire was changed. It didn't damage the drive shaft but did create so much wear to the wheel splines that the wheel in unusable. Looks good to the eye, but way too much wobble. The wheel splines are a lot 'softer' than the final drive splines.

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Wed 30 Jan 2013, 05:16

You never know. You could have run over something on the roar. It would be worth a call.
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Wed 30 Jan 2013, 12:47

NWSSC wrote:
You never know. You could have run over something on the roar. It would be worth a call.

Reading Steve's posts the damage has been done whilst the scooter was parked up. Massive and immediate loss of oil whilst engine running would probably result in engine seizing. Plus oil on rear tyre would have dire consequences for handling.

Good luck Steve on finding a solution.

Cheers,
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Wed 30 Jan 2013, 13:14

Thank you everybody for your thoughts, opinions, suggestions, and support! I still haven't decided on what course of action to take, and will be visiting my Honda Dealer tomorrow to discuss the options ie

1) Pay out up to €2,000 for a full and guaranteed repair.

2) Attempted a patch job with epoxy or weld (that is ask the mechanic to attempt this and just hope that it holds!)

3) Sell the bike as it is (€1,000 - €1,500?) and buy something else in the Spring.

4) Ask my dealer for an attractive/fair trade in on a new Kymco or SYM 300i scooter.

I will of course keep you all posted as to my final decision which will certainly have been gratefully guided by your own generous contributions!

PS One useful skill I have acquired in the posting of this topic, is the ability to insert photos, so I now intend to finally upload all the pictures I took during my glorious European tour last summer to share with the SW community. Perhaps the process of revisiting this adventure with my SW will help sway my final decision! Smile

SteVe
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Wed 30 Jan 2013, 15:04

To make a epoxy repair would take about 2 to3 hours of labour at best .You or your mechanic can do it . Remove center stand .clean the area with brake part cleaner ,grind up the metal surface 1" or more on both sides,bevel the damage the area 45 degrees then with a narrow cutting wheel on the grinder make 2 or more cross cut 1" on both side of the broken peace 1/16' deep get a aluminum rod 3/32'diam put some teeth marks with vise grips on the rod shape the rod to fit the cross groves, Mix the epoxy apply to the metal and where it meets the other face casing ,connect the peaces together hold it the apply the aluminum rods to the cross grove for extra support. cover with epoxy ,let set to cure .You won't get any more in a trade in any way .Your choice.we all feal for you good luck.
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Wed 30 Jan 2013, 19:42

Cosmic Jumper, i did check the drive splines, and everything else in that region. I have no idea why, or how the wheel nut came loose. It will now be part of my weekly checks in future. I have decided to replace the Brake Disc as it is gooved quite badly. I've got one coming from China! cost £48.including postage and packing Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Cracked Engine Case!   Thu 31 Jan 2013, 04:00

An alternative may be to close and pin the crack (for strength), then aluminum braze. That is what my welding engineer contact suggests (she's professionally trained as a welding engineer with emphasis on repair welding). Whatever you do, let us know how you get her to live again.
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