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 Making Progress on new purchase

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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Making Progress on new purchase   Fri 09 Dec 2011, 13:01

I had decided on new bike purchase for 2012---limiting bikes/scooters of interest to 3---SilverWing, Burgman 400 or 650. SilverWing and Burgman 400 I am familiar with as have owned both from new. 650 Burgman was of some interest to me for ease of rear wheel removal/electric windshield,but not the poor gas mileage.

Yesterday---Suzuki dealer in neighborhood---$1200 off price on left over Burgman 650, but added freight of $299 and $99 "document fee"====they are out as handling the paper work is part of their job in selling to me or you. And Freight is usually included in MSRP---so you add this approx. $400 in extra charges up and the discount for left over and its decrease in used value. NO DEAL for me.

So it will probably be another SilverWing from dealer I got my NT from. To me, SilverWing has no known serious faults as transportation tool other than poor air management which can be taken care of with the GIVI adjustable shield, Maybe another set of Baker AirWings(ugly and poor standard mounting) to keep air off stiff knees and some home-made plastic shields to calm air at feet and ankles and of course the usual add on front mud flap---and oh, throttle stop (have supply in junk box).

Can probably again put up with time consuming rear wheel removal (3 or 4 times a year if I have no flats). Replacement tires for SilverWing are reasonable in price, I will buy OEM drive belt to carry as spare.

I view big scooter market as quite dead---and don't look for new developments that are any better than what already it available. Maybe no adjust valves and 50,000 miles drive belts and clutch.

Comments?
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dspevack
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Fri 09 Dec 2011, 13:07

Maybe just new hamsters for power?
I bet the old ones are pretty tired by now. Smile
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toolboxjesse
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Fri 09 Dec 2011, 13:25

Hi John, I'm not sure if you can accurately say that the big scooter market is dead considering the pending launch of 2 650CC BMW scooters this upcoming year, and what about that 800CC Gilera (not sure if it will be offered in US)?
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Waspie
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Fri 09 Dec 2011, 13:48

I think Johns comment about the big scooter market is quite true.

Whilst there are a few dedicated riders like ourselves there is no way we are major players in the overall sales of two wheelers. Jesse, you have to remember BMW have tried before to launch scooters and given up. I hope this time they are successful but for me it's too late and no doubt too expensive!!!! Sad

I actually like the idea of being quite unique in riding a big scooter. We are few and far between and ought to be proud of our promoting the bigger engined scooters.

Nice to hear it looks like you'll be around on the 'Wing' for the foreseeable future John.
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bikerboy
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Fri 09 Dec 2011, 15:18

The new 'Beemer' looks a lot more to our taste than the C1 which was killed off in the UK by the insistence on the need for a crash helmet (unlike the rest of Europe) The Gilera/Aprilia big scoot also could be interesting but perhaps the devil you know could work out best !!
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Daboo
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Fri 09 Dec 2011, 16:22

Obviously, I'm prejudiced on your potential choices. Wink

John, what are the speeds and distances you are commonly riding? Putting aside wind management and the oil leak you developed, did the Burgman 400 have a problem maintaining those speeds? The reason I'm asking, is for the gas mileage benefit you'd get. Over a number of miles, it makes a difference when you're looking at 65 mpg.

Like you've said, for wind management, get a Givi Airflow windscreen.

The other modification I would highly recommend for either bike, is the Dr. Pulley Sliding (DPS) weights. I don't know how far they drop the rpms on the Silverwing, but on the Burgman 400, they drop the freeway rpms by about 1000. In other words, at 70 mph indicated, the engine is loafing along at 5300. It makes for a more relaxed ride.

John, last question for inquiring minds... why not get another NT700?

Good luck on your next purchase...whatever that might be. Smile

Chris
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Sat 10 Dec 2011, 07:36

Might try to answer some questions----why not another NT, which is probably about the best out of the crate bike you can buy....not in US program for 2012. Hasn't sold well here as many idiots feel anything 1300cc and under is girl's bike. NT was purchased as stroke recovery tool--stroke is brain injury and one must re-train brain to do things.....like use clutch, shift, handle and balance weight, move around garage, put on lift. This program has worked for me.

As motorcyclist since 1955----and everyday rider, no trailer biking for me, at this stage like scooter. 73 is next birthday, step thru nice, enclosed carry space, fine. And after over 1.5 million miles, they are pretty fine transportation and touring tool-----secret don't rush them. And don't forget dry feet, if you keep them up.

I make no drive line mods. Since I have ridden in 49 states/Mexico/Canada/All of Europe (from North Cap to Rome) Japan/Korea-----I prefer stock if something breaks and I need dealer help.
Annual mileage now 20-30,000 miles---2012 have some el cheapo trips in mind.

As to new scooter development---BMW, probably some real junk---I have been BMW owner since 1958---worst bike I ever had, new R-27, 4 engines and 2 transmissions in the first 10,000 miles. Still sits in ex-girlfriend's basement near Basel. One thing about BMW, customer is seldom right.....on my then new R80RT----lots of problems, including frame breaking----they saId, I rode too much!-------Italian stuff no thanks---think spare parts backup. But I did have 2 stroke Vespas and good luck with them and a Guzzi, parts?

Weight=Silverwing falls in between 650 Burgman and 400. I think they all handle good as scooters. I am not afraid of Burgman 400, but it is old scooter type design with engine and driveline going up and down together. White is safe color.

I think bikes/scooters/cars with J as first letter in VIN (screwed together in Japan) give good service.

Gas Mileage---as I recall SilverWing always 55-60 mpg=ok Burgman400 probably 60 mpg under same conditions---Burgman 650, no experience, but I have heard they suck up gas ridden hard...and small tank. I had TMAX and it was not very ecomomical in the Gas department.

Only changes I make, add-on to bikes are GIVI rack, throttle stop, mud flap in front......and of course do something about the horrible air management---right now GIVI adjustable windshield seems to be best solution....and sometimes lower "scoops" for calm air at feet and ankles.


Going to Honda this AM to see where we are on trade/pricing/availability
I think 2011 and 2012 SilverWings (US) are same---only Black. My dealer did have leftover 2011's, but only $50 less than 2012.
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Sat 10 Dec 2011, 10:35

x


Last edited by bigbird on Sun 10 Jun 2012, 16:12; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Sat 10 Dec 2011, 12:33

John,

I never rode a B400 but I did have a Majesty and I have to say that after long day rides (over 300 miles) I noticed that I do feel a bit more relaxed with the SWing. The Majesty was a very smooth ride but I think the extra weight and power makes the Swing a bit more relaxing on long rides. If the ride was just a few hours I didn't notice much of a difference but all day long rides I certainly did notice being more relaxed when getting off the bike. It may just be me though since I get a sore back since I injured in boot camp when young.

Other than that the B400 or SWing are great bikes although I have to say I never avg'd 55-60 mpg. It may be since I have to use California blend fuel, which is clean but not good for mileage. I do avg very high 40's to 50 mpg if I ride the speed limit on the interstate.

Good luck..
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Ishkatan
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Sat 10 Dec 2011, 20:06

I think that you should take a Bergman 650 for a ride on roads like you typically travel.

I am finding that I am tempted to ride my Silverwing a bit like a go-fast motorcycle - too fast - because it feels light. The Burgman feels like a Touring machine. A bit heavy on local streets but nice at higher speed on swoopy curves. The main plus on the Bergy... fat seat. Now if I could figure out how to mount a Bergy seat on my Swing.... Smile
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Daboo
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Sat 10 Dec 2011, 23:57

Hmmm...one of the biggest complaints of the 650, is the seat. It's obviously a personal thing.

Chris
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Sun 11 Dec 2011, 00:36

I found the 650 Burgman seat very firm in comparison to the Silver Wing I have now. The Burgman is also heavy to lift onto the main stand and move about physically, especially when the engine is cold. As it's bigger and bulkier than the Silver Wing, John should take this into consideration as a man in his early 70's and who has had a stroke. This might not be a problem as I noticed there were quite a few riders on Burgman USA in their late 60's and early 70's, and used to wonder if they coped with the weight OK. I thought it was too big and bulky when I first rode one and opted for the 400, but I still bought one three years later,

Another thing is the stock windscreen, it doesn't give any protection to the hands and needed to be a bit taller for my 5' 11". John may want to fit the Givi screen as it gives excellent hand cover, but it needs cutting down 3" or 4", as even fully lowered it's too high for most riders. Otherwise factor in the cost of a new or used Clearview for wind management. A front mud flap is pretty easy to fit and so is a top case, you install a mounting plate and rack using the holes that held the passenger backrest, and some Tupperware comes off to do this. Check out that LeDude fella from BUSA for the best way to do this and the mud flap.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Sun 11 Dec 2011, 07:22

On Sat, 12/10----got some numbers from my Dealer in Chattanooga--Southern Honda, we are within $500 on offer for trade in bike, my NT 2010.

They have left over 2011's, black in crate----I don't like to buy stuff that has been showroom sat on and foot scuffed....or test ridden hard with fresh engine. If I wanted to run 2 bikes, that is keep my NT and have scooter, outright deal on SilverWing ABS is about $1200-1300 off MSRP, but they throw in $99 "document" fee. Insurance not cheap in Chattanooga----I think lots of claims from the poor driving/riding techniques here.

I am going to try another Suzuki dealer on Tues----My neighborhood Suzuki dealer does not have white 400's or 650.

Cool here----ride into bike shop on Sat---I am only bike---Wimps drive pickup trucks. Sad when employee parking lot looks like pick up heaven....and so does customer lot. Bike business/industry in US in downturn.....they the manufacturers need to encourage people to ride/but their stuff/and weat it out.

My take on seats---stock ok, I never have had "custom" seat----think many who "need" them are a little fat and out of shape. And on custom seat, any place needle on gone thru cover---water gets in and squirts you in butt when you sit on it and last for days after rain. Sat on one once.

Like comment on this-----I think Honda plastic easier to take off than Suzuki? Both can be pain in my experience.
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eddy
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Sun 11 Dec 2011, 07:37

Before i found my SiWi, i did a test ride on a Burg 400, build year 2005.
When acceleration from zero, i noticed heavy vibrations.Very annoying in fact.
They all eat oil, according the owner.
(fairly seller)

Don't know if those problems still are with the newer models.


Eddy
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ulflyer
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Sun 11 Dec 2011, 09:05

John, yes the plastics are easier to remove on the SW. B400 has oil filter inside a cover with 3 screws and you have to remove or loosen the lower left cover to get at it. B400 does handle road ripples much better. Heaver SW a little better handling interstate turbulance. I think the SW CVT system has proven more trouble free than the B400.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Sun 11 Dec 2011, 10:39

I am aware of SW vs Burgman 400 oil filter issue. Spin vs cartridge---my take, spin-on for SW from Walmart, much easier.

Based on experience with big singles (in this case Burgman 400) they do use oil when run hard---also my SR500 Yamaha did, XBR500S (GB500) Honda did and even my Royal Enfield 500 did in the 50's....but they also leaked a lot, too.----Funny I had 4 Helix's---all run 36,000-50,000 miles before trade, run wide open most of the time, WalMart 10-40----no oil usuage I can recall...and no oil filter other than screen.

Hunt will go on. Fun to buy something when you really don't need to.

Plastic take off always something to consider----my experience, don't be afraid, have shop manual handy---little WD40 and mild heat and things usually come off with no breakage.

Of course if Helix(real Honda) were still offered new---I'd get one=easy to work on, broken belt can be changed along the road, easy valve adjustment, that wonderful built in trunk, neg is buffeting. I replaced Helix with Reflex, which was superior scooter, but I enjoyed Helix more. Reflex life ended when lady on cell phone, ran 2 stop signs and nailed me.....Reflex losts its life, I ended up only with hand injury.

Really something to think about, when putt putts are reaching the near $10,000 mark.
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Daboo
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Sun 11 Dec 2011, 10:57

ulflyer wrote:
...B400 has oil filter inside a cover with 3 screws and you have to remove or loosen the lower left cover to get at it...
That must've been on the earlier model B400. I've never pulled plastic to change my engine oil in 60,000 miles.

The only thing the same between the 2006 and earlier model B400, and the 2007 and later years is the general shape and name. The bike was totally redesigned in 2007.

Chris
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Sun 11 Dec 2011, 12:03

If I remember correctly it's 3 screws to remove a metal cover to change the cartridge type oil filter, and there's a 'O' ring to replace before screwing on the cover after the filter change. There's no plastic to remove.

The main differences between the 2007 onwards and the earlier 400 Burgmans were the newer models now have twin discs, bigger 62 litres underseat storage, and one on/one off headlights.

Maybe John should go and have another look at that nearly new Helix he knows about.
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Sun 11 Dec 2011, 15:16

Daboo: I had an 08 and 09 B400. Could never get filter cover off without loosening plastic. It was no big deal, just not as convenient as the SW. Good on you if you can.

John: I run the snot outta my two on Interstates and neither ever used any oil. Neither did the older model 05 B400, although some folks said theirs did. some of that was oil throw out into the air filter and there was a fix for that.

I agree with you about the Helix. The 06 I now have, being my third one, is very comfortable to ride. Main objection I have is its limited speed of around 70 on level, much less uphill. Local Honda dealer in Winston Salem has an 07 with it think about 2000 miles on it, like new, asking around 38 or 3900....forget exactly. I'm going to sell mine come spring but have a tentative hold on it from a lady in N.J. Its like new with 12K, trunk, tall WS, Utopia. oil changed evertime the red rolls around (1200 miles?) with Amsoil.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Sun 11 Dec 2011, 16:57

Something to think about on Helix----J rated tires @62 mph on 70mph bike. Always worried me----did have one Bridgestone rear come apart on my in long high speed curve---no deflate or fall down but real thrill, until stopped.
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Mon 12 Dec 2011, 02:34

john grinsel wrote:
Might try to answer some questions----why not another NT, which is probably about the best out of the crate bike you can buy....not in US program for 2012.

If you like the NT why are you trading yours in? i.e. why not keep it?

If you have high mileage on it why not look for a used one?

Just being nosy.....
Also wondering whats your mileage on it, is yours the ABS version and what is the dealer offering or what are you trying to get?
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Mon 12 Dec 2011, 04:56

eddy wrote:
Before i found my SiWi, i did a test ride on a Burg 400, build year 2005.
When acceleration from zero, i noticed heavy vibrations.Very annoying in fact.
They all eat oil, according the owner.
(fairly seller)

Don't know if those problems still are with the newer models.


Eddy

No, the 2007 + doesn't consume oil.
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Mon 12 Dec 2011, 04:57

ulflyer wrote:
John, yes the plastics are easier to remove on the SW. B400 has oil filter inside a cover with 3 screws and you have to remove or loosen the lower left cover to get at it. B400 does handle road ripples much better. Heaver SW a little better handling interstate turbulance. I think the SW CVT system has proven more trouble free than the B400.

You do not have to remove any plastic to access the oil filter.

BTW it's AN400
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Mon 12 Dec 2011, 11:34

I know on oil filter removal, Burgman 400 vs SilverWing. Remember I have owned both and do own work. Spin on always wins in ease of replacement.

As to keeping NT----I just like to get new bike each year, makes life interesting. I would never buy used unless giveaway price and then only for quick re-sale. My bikes get miles and I prefer to ride under warranty much as I can......but do not buy extended warranty/service plans as they usually cover very little and are costly. At this point in US market, Kymco does offer 2 year warranty.....and their parts are cheaper.

NT has 15,000 miles now----dealer wants to give $5500---might bite at 6,000. NT has been sales flop in US---meaning used are down in value. Trade time NT will have 20,000 plus and perfect.

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PostSubject: Re: Making Progress on new purchase   Tue 13 Dec 2011, 18:07

ulflyer wrote:
Daboo: I had an 08 and 09 B400. Could never get filter cover off without loosening plastic. It was no big deal, just not as convenient as the SW. Good on you if you can.

I'm not sure why you had to remove anything on your Burgman AN400K8 or K9, here is a picture of the locations for the filter and drain plug on my K8 and as you can see there is nothing in the way.



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