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southwestcrazy
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PostSubject: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 22, 2011 10:51 pm

Hi everyone; Wife has a tow-pac ket on swing and it is a little hard to steer for her. She is little bitty. Has anyone heard of or changed the rake angle of a swing. Or even heard of such a thing on a swing.... Tony
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dspevack
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 22, 2011 11:12 pm

Been around Swing mods since 2003.
Even pioneered a few.
But a rake change...Never heard of it.
Doesn't mean it can't be done.
All it takes is money.
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 23, 2011 12:06 am

I changed the rake today. I went from the Fall leaf rake to the Spring dethatching rake.


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southwestcrazy
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 23, 2011 1:11 am

LOL. I am new to this forum and it is nice to know we have a sense of humor... I haven't even looked at the triple tree or anything yet. I guess I was hoping for a ez steer ket or something or maybe another tree that you could change to without the torch and welder. Any ideas would be deeply appreciated. And I hope I am doing these post right. I am learning as I go I recon.
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Jeff Rosenkranz
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 23, 2011 3:59 am

Hi SWCrazy...........That's a great question. As dirt riders and sport bike riders have found, sliding the forks up in the triple tree makes steering quicker, and sliding them down increases high speed stability. Yes......you are actually changing the rake. But..........The SW doesn't have a triple tree......shocked me also when I realized this...... Just a single pinch clamp per fork tube. There is a groove in your forks for that pinch bolt, eliminating adjustment...... and yes, I would've liked to experiment with my front end geometry also. So...........what else could we try????? scratch Jeff.
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Buickguy
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 23, 2011 4:00 am

An easier way might be with changing the fork tube length.
While it doesn't change the rake angle per se, it does change the trail, effectively the same as changing the rake angle.
Adding just a couple inches over will increase trail, making it harder to steer in slow stuff and more stable at speed
Dropping a couple inches shortens the trail making it easier at slow speed but a bit twitchy at high speeds.
Its a delicate balancing act when you start playing with rake and trail.


Edit to add:
too slow, beat me to it
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Jeff Rosenkranz
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 23, 2011 4:19 am

Good one BuickGuy...........In the dirt I never went more than 10mm at a time, while sorting out the front end. Isn't it incredible tho, how much you can change the personality of a two wheeler with this simple adjustment...............which we cant do with our SW's.............Hmmmmm...........shorter or longer tubes?????..........in the 70's Franks made fork tubes by request..........Hmmmmmm...........Jeff.
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Buickguy
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 23, 2011 4:42 am

Thanks Jeff.

Sliding up and down is the same as changing the length. You are right, a 10mm change makes a difference. One inch is about 25.4mm so two inches can make a huge difference.
Forking by Frank is still around as far as I know. He still did custom length stuff the last I saw.
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southwestcrazy
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 23, 2011 4:59 am

I guess I was hoping this would be a easy fix since there are ez-steer kits for goldwings and I think they are only changing the rake angle about 6 degrees. Might be more to it than that, don't know for sure. So any ideas(short of saw-all and duct tape) would be helpfull to me. And yes it is amazing. I ride a 99 goldwing and changing air pressure in rear shocks makes it ride like different bike. Since hers is more like a trike I thought going farther out would make it steer easer.
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dspevack
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 23, 2011 5:52 am

Many people upgrade to hyperpro springs (which are progressive) in the front. Without exception, people report an improvement in handling and response, and a much more civilized response to potholes and road imperfections.

Rear shocks are replaceable too. I believe the maker is Hagon.

There are people who have changed the angle of the handlebars slightly, and found that makes for more control.

These are the only improvements I have seen in 8 years that could possibly make anything close to the differences you are concerned with.
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john grinsel
Curmudgeon, Rubber band guru
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 23, 2011 11:57 am

First get her to ride right. Bikes are leaned not steered. No amount of changing things around is going to fix the riding.

Safety course? Motorcycle experience? Advanced training? Ride everyday?

SilverWing works fine as is----fork spring change has little effect at slow speeds.

John Grinsel
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roadrunner
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 23, 2011 12:46 pm

I'm not sure what you mean by "tow-pac ket." Is that one of those deals that turns a bike into a "trike" (even though it now has four wheels)? If that's the case, I'm not sure what you can do. Increasing the rake is going to increase the propensity for understeer -- the tendency to keep going straight when you initiate a turn.

You might try increasing the front tire pressure to the max recommended, although that won't help prevent understeer either.

You might also consider changing the handlebars to something that gives her more leverage. You'll probably need to lose the handle cover to do that, though.
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joncallihan
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 23, 2011 4:50 pm

John Grinsel: This is not a lean problem, this is a TRIKE which is DRIVEN.

To everyone else in this thread, this is a valid question which has no happy ending. EZ steer is an option for almost every trikeable bike except this silly one clamp steering tree. I, too, am looking for an answer. I have given some thought to trying to find the correct length Earles fork to replace the mickey mouse setup that Honda saddled those of us who have added training wheels with. :flower:
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http://www.joncallihan.com
southwestcrazy
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 23, 2011 7:19 pm

Well men, sorry for going to sleep last night, and thank you all very much for your ideas. I seem to have came into a not so EZ fix but I guess if it were easy it would have allready been done and on the market. And you guys have a great day... Tony
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 23, 2011 10:58 pm

This is third attempt....but I think I am edited because my experiences are from riding.

You do not have rake problem....but a trail problem! When bikes came equiped to handle sidecars like BMW and HD, BMW forks from 1955 were trail adjustable, HD adjustable trail forks were available-----better straight running, cut down on head shake------new HD trike has different fork trail.

Trike kits, like those made in US for scooters, probably have no safety approval like German TUV, nor could they make it....Maybe Lehman or HD did/does.

Trike should also have steering dampener.

Trikes probably do not handle well under best of conditions, but I am sure special skills are involved-----Sidecars are probably safer with skilled rider.

I have owned 2 three Messerschmitts, so have some 3 wheel experience. Easy to raise wheel in turns or flip.

Rode sidecar outfits for 40 years on and off----good ones, HD and BMW R51/3 and home brews Guzzi V-7/Steib, Yamaha 500 single/Jawa----so am familar of how they steer/go with and without proper trail.


John Grinsel
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bigbird
Silver Wing Guru
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 23, 2011 11:04 pm

john grinsel wrote:

I have owned 2 Messerschmitts

Last time I had a Messerschmitt in a Tennessee public bathroom I was banned from that state forever.
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southwestcrazy
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Number of posts : 6
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 24, 2011 1:20 am

Bigbird, I bet the statute of limitations has ran out by now, its short in TN. John, I guess I am missing something. I thought when you changed rake angle it changed the trail length but which ever or what ever or neither. The problem is when she rides twistys or just turns into a driveway it takes more force (on her shoulders) than she wants to endure. Just want it to steer a little easyer. And it may be as easy as it can be made anyway.
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Buickguy
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 24, 2011 2:31 am

The Kabinroller was cool
rake change Messerschmitt-KR-200-image
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roadrunner
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 24, 2011 3:36 am

The SWing has pretty narrow handlebars. Seriously, change them to something that provides more leverage. The mechanical advantage will enable less effort for the same result, i.e., easier steering. That's why mx bikes have wider bars with a mild rise and not clip-ons or ape hangers -- LEVERAGE. I used mx bars on my CB750 hack and it helped a lot.
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honda_silver
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 24, 2011 4:29 am

Would a taller and/or wider tire than the OEM front tire size help??
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southwestcrazy
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 24, 2011 1:43 pm

Roadrunner: That sounds like a good thing to try. Thanks for saying it again. (Sometimes I need a knock in the head to get my attention). My wife and I talked about it sometime back and she didn't like losing the handlebar cover(the look). That may make no difference now since shoulder problems and surgery. She will not get to ride this year except behind me on wing. So I have time to try some things. Swing is about ready for a new tire on front so may look at options there also, bigger or smaller?? Makes you think don't it? Ya'll have a good day
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roadrunner
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 24, 2011 7:29 pm

A smaller (width) tire MAY lighten up the steering but at the cost of a smaller contact patch. I'm about to perform surgery on my handle cover so I can use it with ANY bars; if I don't muck it up too badly I'll post some photos.
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Guest
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 24, 2011 8:48 pm

I am getting a rake kit for my Burgman 650 trinity trike kit, they will probably build one for the silverwing if there is interest. I have just installed one of my bodies on a silverwing trike and it fits fine, working on the Glavie side pods for the silverwing now, and I think they will work ok, just got to find some attach points. The side pods will only work with a leo vince exhaust, as I had to move the exhaust out a bit and drop it about 1 in. to fit the side pods. Pictures of my body can be seen on the trinity trike web site, I can send any one pictures of the silverwing body and side pods Im working on.
Wayne Langille
seatec
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 24, 2011 9:07 pm

Nice Messerschmitt picture appears to be '57----some earlier had different trim on front fenders----this one still has Messerschmitt "hood ornament", later, my'59 had the FMR symbol.

Maybe '58 or so power was reduced from just over 10 DIN to just under 10 DIN for insurance purposes. Compared to bike---heater, various top options, ski rack and luggage rack----best for poor like I was then, take front seat out and sleep in it.

Until recently, somebody in England was making replicas with Helix power train.

Used I paid $400 my new was around 2400DM=around $600. Later there was 500 Tiger, somewhat trouble prone, but fast for the time---about $1000 out the door, but for those with enough money a A-H Sprite was about $1200-$1300.

John Grinsel
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Buickguy
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PostSubject: Re: rake change   rake change I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 25, 2011 12:40 am

I would have loved one of those English built Helix powered 'Schmitt replicas.
I think they were also doing the Isetta replica as well.
They were just about impossible to get in the US however.
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