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 Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?

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russcarver
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PostSubject: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 29 Sep 2010, 03:01

Hi all,

I am about to perform the 4K service myself (plus oil/filter/final drive oil change). After looking at the service manual, it appears that I cannot inspect the thickness of the clutch shoes on my own (without buying a lot more tools to tear it all apart).

Does anyone know how quickly these shoes wear out? The service manual says to inspect every 4K miles but never says when to replace them. Is it worth paying Honda to just do this part of the 4K service? Or does anyone know of an easier way to inspect them (other than taking the whole clutch apart)? Or should they be fine at 4K miles?

Has anyone had them replaced and if so, at what mileage?

Thanks!

--Russ
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 29 Sep 2010, 08:54

Hi Russ,

Remember...Tools are the best investment and the next is having the smarts on how to use them.

Have you inspected your drive belt before? If you have a Harbor Freight tools around your home, head on over and pick up a set of large metric impact sockets, and some other smaller metric sockets, I suggest you use only 6 sided sockets on the scooter.

You will also need a set metric "T" handel Hex Key set.

This is the set I got from them and they work GREAT! Only $4.99 at this time. They look cheep but they work good.
http://www.harborfreight.com/10-piece-color-coded-t-handle-metric-hex-key-set-37862.html

If you need help...Just ask.

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russcarver
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 29 Sep 2010, 10:06

Yeah, I have a great set of tools, including those. However, the tools to disassemble the clutch are specific and not likely to be used for anything else (hence my hesitation to buy them).

--Russ
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 29 Sep 2010, 10:57

Russ,

Just trying to help.

If just looking at the clutch pads to see if within spec., all you need is a 22mm impack to remove the driven assembly, that's it....Just 1 nut and a re-torque to 40 ft.lbs. when you reassemble. Do you have a digital caliper?
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russcarver
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 29 Sep 2010, 11:12

Unfortunately, I do not have a caliper nor an impack? Is that like a 22mm socket wrench?

-Russ
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 29 Sep 2010, 11:28

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russcarver
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 29 Sep 2010, 13:31

From what I can tell, impact sockets need an impact (air-powered) wrench. I don't have that nor the money to invest in one right now.

Would it be possible to undo this nut with a regular socket wrench? This picture in the service manual seems to allude to that, but they use a "universal holder" tool to keep the clutch from rotating as it would otherwise turn with the nut.

Has anyone solved this issue without having to buy a "universal holder"?

--Russ
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honda_silver
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 29 Sep 2010, 14:17

russcarver wrote:
Has anyone solved this issue without having to buy a "universal holder"?

http://www.leroybeal.net/motorcycles/silverwing/articles/drivepulleytool/drivepulleytool.html

If you update your location, you may find others in your area that might be able to help.
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russcarver
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 29 Sep 2010, 14:35

That's an awesome tool and sure beats the $91 price tag honda wants for the universal holder. However, I'm looking for something to hold the clutch still (as opposed to the drive pulley).

And is that nut that keeps the clutch on indeed 22mm? Or is it 12mm? Can someone verify? The service manual doesn't specify.

Thanks!

--Russ
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 29 Sep 2010, 14:36

Hi Russ,

OK...Using a 6 point (6 sided) socket, ether impact or standard socket will lessen your chances, considerably, of stripping the hex head off the oil drain plug on your scooter. The darn thing is made of aluminum!
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russcarver
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 29 Sep 2010, 14:41

Thanks Dennis, but I'm not talking about the oil drain plug, but rather the nut to take off the clutch. What size is it?

As an aside, I saw in another post that the oil drain plug is 24mm size. But I can't find that in 6-point (just 12). Does it come in 6 point? Or is there a non-metric equivalent?

--Russ
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 29 Sep 2010, 14:55

22mm (Like I mensioned to you earlier) and impact sockets are 6 points (always). They are just like standard sockets and come in 3/8", 1/2", 3/4" and 1" drives.

P.s. This is my last entry on this topic. good luck!
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Hammy
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 29 Sep 2010, 18:44

DennisB wrote:
Hi Russ,

OK...Using a 6 point (6 sided) socket, ether impact or standard socket will lessen your chances, considerably, of stripping the hex head off the oil drain plug on your scooter. The darn thing is made of aluminum!

Tell me about it -- I already stripped mine trying to change my oil the second time! Grrr....
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 29 Sep 2010, 22:32

russcarver wrote:
From what I can tell, impact sockets need an impact (air-powered) wrench. I don't have that nor the money to invest in one right now.

Would it be possible to undo this nut with a regular socket wrench? This picture in the service manual seems to allude to that, but they use a "universal holder" tool to keep the clutch from rotating as it would otherwise turn with the nut.

Has anyone solved this issue without having to buy a "universal holder"?

--Russ

You don't need a "universal holder" to remove the Clutch assembly. Just set the parking brake and grab the rear brake lever while you remove that 22 mm nut.

After the nut comes off give the whole clutch ass'y a good yank and it will slide off the shaft. Be sure to inspect the Clutch Bell (Clutch Outer) for scoring, etc as well as checking the clutch shoes for wear. Use some emery cloth to deglaze the clutch bell if you find that it's got a polished surface from the clutch shoes.

It's highly improbable that you'll find any problems with either piece though.

The nut is only torqued to 40 lbs, so as you're loostening the nut pay close attention to how 'tight' it feels. Now assuming you can get access to a torque wrench, When you reinstall the nut 'torque' it to the same feel and you'll be okay. After all, 40 lbs isn't very tight, nor is that nut torque all that critical.

FWIW, as long as you're going to the aggro of pulling the clutch you might want to consider upgrading the clutch springs to Malossi springs. Even the weakest (white) Malossi springs are an improvement over the OEM clutch springs. ScooterTrap has the Malossi spring setif you're interested.

As far as removing the Variator goes you will need a holder for that job. Don't waste your money on Honda's 'Universal Holder"' tool. Leroy Beal's tool will work just fine.
The 75 lb torque on the 17mm bolt holding the Variator is much more critical than the clutch nut torque. You'll certainly want to use some type of torque wrench on that one.
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russcarver
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 29 Sep 2010, 23:56

Thanks for the tips! I really appreciate it. I'm going to try it out this weekend. It looks (according to the service manual) that as long as I don't disassemble anything other than just taking off the clutch, there are no parts to replace (like seals) or parts to grease. That's a relief. Now, to find a 1/2" 22mm 6-point deep socket somewhere local....

As for the oil drain nut, I got a 15/16" 1/2" drive socket and it seems to fit just fine (as no one carries a 24mm 6 point socket here locally). We'll find out this weekend if it works!

--Russ
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russcarver
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Thu 30 Sep 2010, 13:32

Last question (well at least for now....). Does anyone know if I actually need a deep 22mm socket? Or will a regular one work just fine?

--Russ
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Thu 30 Sep 2010, 16:03

russcarver wrote:
Last question (well at least for now....). Does anyone know if I actually need a deep 22mm socket? Or will a regular one work just fine?

--Russ

A standard depth 22 mm socket will be fine. You may find that a short extension will help too.

I use a 1/2" drive 22 mm socket and 1/2" drive breaker bar to loosen the Clutch nut and a 1/2" drive 17 mm socket on the Variator bolt. Then switch over to a torque wrench when reinstalling the hardware.

There's no reason why 3/8" drive tools wouldn't work just as well.
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russcarver
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Thu 30 Sep 2010, 17:56

Thanks! What is that the variator and do I need to remove it to or just the clutch in order to check the shoes? The manual does not show any of the parts being called a variator...

--Russ
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Thu 30 Sep 2010, 21:12

Oops...Who knew? Honda refers to it at the Drive Pulley.

See page 10-6 of the Manual. Universally a variable drive pulley assembly like this is called a Variator.
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Sweendog
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Thu 30 Sep 2010, 22:57

honda_silver wrote:
russcarver wrote:
Has anyone solved this issue without having to buy a "universal holder"?

http://www.leroybeal.net/motorcycles/silverwing/articles/drivepulleytool/drivepulleytool.html

If you update your location, you may find others in your area that might be able to help.

Leroy's pulley holder is a great idea. But for god's sake, PLEASE don't ruin your torque wrench by removing the drive bolt. Use a breaker-bar, socket wrench w/an extension handle, or an impact wrench.
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russcarver
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Sat 02 Oct 2010, 14:11

So here's some of my own tips after successful completion:

1) I used a 6 point deep socket 22mm for a 3/8" drive on the clutch nut. Worked like a charm using just the parking brake. I had to step on the wrench handle to break it free. Clutch shoes had about 5mm thickness at 4K miles.

2) Used a 6 point standard 17mm 1/2" drive socket for the drive pulley (had to take off the face to get the belt off to get the clutch off). Made the nifty board contraption here which also worked like a charm. Used a 3/8" driver wrench with a 3/8 - 1/2 adaptor. Also had to step on the wrench to break the nut free.

3) Be careful that if you move forward the back of the drive pulley any, the back half may separate and all the rollers may all out - yikes!

4) When reassembling the drive pully, you won't be able to get the face fully back on as you can't move the belt back into position with only two hands (I tried all sorts of tricks). However, torquing it to 76 ft-lbs will certainly get the job done.

Cheers!

--Russ
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Tue 20 Jun 2017, 15:37

An old thread but I have now the same question asked at the start but was never really answered.

How long on average do the clutch shoes last. To check them every 4k miles is ok but just how long do they usually last. I never see them for sale as you would belts, rollers etc so do I assume they are not replaced that often.

Thanks for any info

Mr Blobby  Laughing Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Tue 20 Jun 2017, 18:27

Hammy wrote:
DennisB wrote:
Hi Russ,

OK...Using a 6 point (6 sided) socket, ether impact or standard socket will lessen your chances, considerably, of stripping the hex head off the oil drain plug on your scooter. The darn thing is made of aluminum!

Tell me about it -- I already stripped mine trying to change my oil the second time! Grrr....

A friend just ruined his, he said to try and find an older tappet cover ( oil drain plug ) with the same thread pitch, seems they are solid and more sturdy.
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Tue 20 Jun 2017, 22:28

Mr Blobby,

The FSM says that the clutch shoe lining is 4.0 mm thick with a wear limit of 1.0 mm --that'd be 3.0 mm of wear. I can't recall anyone having worn out the pads, but given enough clutch slip the pad life could be severely reduced. That said, the clutch is very sturdy.

If you are concerned about the condition of your clutch the Driven Pulley assembly (i.e. clutch) is easy enough to remove to check. You could at that time change the 5 OEM clutch shoe springs for Malossi clutch springs which will cause the clutch shoes to engage at an rpm which is closer into the power curve.

Malossi white springs are 10% stronger than OEM Honda springs. Malossi red and yellow springs are stronger yet. Malossi springs come as a set of 15 springs; 5 each white, red, and yellow.

So the bottom line is: unless you are experiencing a problem, at 4,000 miles or Km, don't worry about the shoes. But if you are concerned, pull the Driven Pulley, clean the dust off the clutch and check the pads for wear. Pulling the Driven Pulley is easy enough. HTH

Tim
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Wed 21 Jun 2017, 23:32

With centrifugal clutches like all others allowing them to slip excessively is the major cause of wear. I always use plenty of power starting out to lock up the clutch quickly with minimal slippage.
I recently looked at a friend's Silverwing's clutch. He has 34,000 miles on it and a bit more than half of the original thickness so I'd guess there's a good chance to get 40,000 miles out of one.
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Thu 22 Jun 2017, 13:40

That's good to know, I was wondering what the typical wear rate is. Think I'll pull mine for a looksee at 20k and possibly pop in some Dr Pulleys while it's all apart.
I've noticed mine is a bit grabby dropping out when cold, most likely just needs a clean. Or perhaps it's just me wanting to have a rummage in another unexplored part of the bike lol.
I'm more and more impressed with these machines!
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Thu 22 Jun 2017, 18:09

Hi All

Thanks to Cosmic Jumper for the info about the clutch details and the subsequent posts about experiences and mileages etc. Good info so thanks to everyone. With under 10k on the bike, thumbs up from me then.

Mr Blobby
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Fri 23 Jun 2017, 17:29

Mr Blobby wrote:
An old thread but I have now the same question asked at the start but was never really answered.

How long on average do the clutch shoes last. To check them every 4k miles is ok but just how long do they usually last. I never see them for sale as you would belts, rollers etc so do I assume they are not replaced that often.

Thanks for any info

Mr Blobby  Laughing Laughing
Fifty thousand miles is a good place to start keeping an eye on those clutch shoes, I recommend a new belt every 25 thousand Unless you are getting a V lamp sooner. Happy motoring lloyd 193. swing
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Sat 24 Jun 2017, 16:04

russcarver wrote:
Hi all,

I am about to perform the 4K service myself (plus oil/filter/final drive oil change).  After looking at the service manual, it appears that I cannot inspect the thickness of the clutch shoes on my own (without buying a lot more tools to tear it all apart).

Does anyone know how quickly these shoes wear out?  The service manual says to inspect every 4K miles but never says when to replace them.  Is it worth paying Honda to just do this part of the 4K service?  Or does anyone know of an easier way to inspect them (other than taking the whole clutch apart)?  Or should they be fine at 4K miles?

Has anyone had them replaced and if so, at what mileage?

Thanks!

--Russ
Russ, Forget about those clutch shoes, They will probably be good when you sell the bike. If you want to look at them at about 50,000 miles it won't hurt. Happy motoring lloyd 193. swing
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PostSubject: Re: Inspecting Clutch Shoes at 4K service?   Sat 24 Jun 2017, 17:05

oldwingguy wrote:
Hammy wrote:
DennisB wrote:
Hi Russ,

OK...Using a 6 point (6 sided) socket, ether impact or standard socket will lessen your chances, considerably, of stripping the hex head off the oil drain plug on your scooter. The darn thing is made of aluminum!

Tell me about it -- I already stripped mine trying to change my oil the second time! Grrr....

A friend just ruined his, he said to try and find an older tappet cover ( oil drain plug ) with the same thread pitch, seems they are solid and more sturdy.
If you have been successful in getting the plug out with your vise grips or water pump pliers, Place it in your vise and cut a slot across the hex using a 32 tooth fine hack saw blade you can tighten it with a large screw driver until you get a new one. Careful that you do not damage the O ring or groove.
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