12000 mile shopping list

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:21 pm

Hammy,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_oil

I read this to say "NO". Read up ... I have been using regular Exxon 10w30 in my scoot, but now I am going to do some research.

Here is another rather long report ... .

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm

there are more... my gut feeling is, good oil is good oil. but I am still open to having my mind changed.

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:27 pm

The article basically says, yes, motorcycle oil and regular car engine oil are different. If there's no JASO-MA thingy on the label, I guess I can't really use it then. Rats -- guess I'll have to buy my oil from a bike shop again...

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:48 pm

Around here, AutoZone auto parts stores carry motorcycle oil. Probably other large auto parts stores also carry it. It may be more expensive than Wally's, but probably cheaper and more convenient than going to a M/C dealer. Might be worth a look (or a call).

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:44 am

I stand to be corrected but I think the business over car and motorcycle oil being different is due to motorcycles having wet clutches.

I doubt as 'pure' engine oil for a Silverwing it matters much if one uses 'car' oil.

_________________
Mike - Riding on the right - riding for pleasure!

'09 Silverwing 600 - 'The Winged Express' - Delta Blue, ABS, Heated Grips, Givi Airflow Screen, Utopia rider's backrest, Givi pillion backrest & E52 Topbox, Cortech Super Mini Tank Bag as a tunnel-bag, Starcom Digital Comms System.

www.x9ownersclub.co.uk - for all Maxi-Riders who want to RIDE!

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Edmund Burke

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:00 am

I read this a couple of years ago ... Amsoil's A Study of
Motorcycle Oils ( http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf )

_________________
Bill - Georgetown TX 07 Silver Wing ABS

Clearview w/vent, Givi E96/TB19/E52 with Admore Lighting, Alaskan Leather, Wrist Rests, 3M Solas tape, K&N air, Hyperpro spring, Grip Puppies, Airhawk, Utopia backrest, Stebel, Apexcone HIDs, StingerZ LEDs (w/Backoff WigWag), Knight Rider Sequential LED, NGK Iridium, Power Commander III, Manic Salamander, Saeng mirrors, Garmin Zumo 660, Dark-Side Sumitomo Tire

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:17 am

Silverwing scooters do NOT have a wet clutch like a regular motorcycle, so the research and articles about motorcycle oils actually are irrelevant to them. It won't hurt to use "motorcycle" oil in them, but "auto" oils will do the job just fine at a much more economical price. However, we can argue over "dino oil" and "snythetics".

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:01 am

thomphoto wrote:

Silverwing scooters do NOT have a wet clutch like a regular motorcycle, so the research and articles about motorcycle oils actually are irrelevant to them.

There are more factors then wet clutch, for example (from the document I listed above):

1. Operational Speed - Motorcycles tend to operate at engine speeds significantly higher than automobiles. This places additional stress on engine components, increasing the need for wear protection. It also subjects lubricating oils to higher loading and shear forces. Elevated operating RPMs also promote foaming, which can reduce an oil’s load-carrying ability and accelerate oxidation.

2. Compression Ratios - Motorcycles tend to operate with higher engine compression ratios than automobiles. Higher compression ratios place additional stress on engine components and increase engine operating temperatures. Higher demands are placed on the oil to reduce wear. Elevated operating temperatures also promote thermal degradation of the oil, reducing its life expectancy and increasing the formation of internal engine deposits.

3. Horsepower/ Displacement Density - Motorcycle engines produce nearly twice the horsepower per cubic inch of displacement of automobile engines. This exposes the lubricating oil to higher temperatures and stress.

4. Variable Engine Cooling - In general, automotive applications use a sophisticated water-cooling system to control engine operating temperature. Similar systems can be found in motorcycle applications, but other designs also exist. Many motorcycles are air-cooled or use a combination air/oil design. Though effective, they result in greater fluctuations in operating temperatures, particularly when motorcycles are operated in stop-and-go traffic. Elevated operating temperature promotes oxidation and causes oils to thin, reducing their load carrying ability.

5. Multiple Lubrication Functionality - In automotive applications, engine oils are required to lubricate only the engine. Other automotive assemblies, such as transmissions, have separate fluid reservoirs that contain a lubricant designed specifically for that component. The requirements of that fluid differ significantly from those of automotive engine oil. Many motorcycles have a common sump supplying oil to both the engine and transmission. In such cases, the oil is required to meet the needs of both the engine and the transmission gears. Many motorcycles also incorporate a frictional clutch within the transmission that uses the same oil.

6. Inactivity - Motorcycles are typically used less frequently than automobiles. Whereas automobiles are used on a daily basis, motorcycle use is usually periodic and in many cases seasonal. These extended periods of inactivity place additional stress on motorcycle oils. In these circumstances, rust and acid corrosion protection are of critical concern.

_________________
Bill - Georgetown TX 07 Silver Wing ABS

Clearview w/vent, Givi E96/TB19/E52 with Admore Lighting, Alaskan Leather, Wrist Rests, 3M Solas tape, K&N air, Hyperpro spring, Grip Puppies, Airhawk, Utopia backrest, Stebel, Apexcone HIDs, StingerZ LEDs (w/Backoff WigWag), Knight Rider Sequential LED, NGK Iridium, Power Commander III, Manic Salamander, Saeng mirrors, Garmin Zumo 660, Dark-Side Sumitomo Tire

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:03 am

thomphoto wrote:

Silverwing scooters do NOT have a wet clutch like a regular motorcycle, so the research and articles about motorcycle oils actually are irrelevant to them. It won't hurt to use "motorcycle" oil in them, but "auto" oils will do the job just fine at a much more economical price. However, we can argue over "dino oil" and "snythetics".

I agree in principle. However, why would Honda specify JASO MA in the owner's and service manual if it really wasn't required? Surely the Honda engineers know that the Swing and all other scooters do not have a wet clutch. Are their manual writers lazy, and just copy and paste instead of rewriting? Probably not.
I use a heavy duty engine oil. That way I know there will be minimal valve train wear and I will not have to spend a huge amount of money later to get the valves adjusted.
Energy conserving motor oils will not protect the valve train to the degree that a heavy duty engine oil will.

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:05 am

Big Bird, what brand and type of oil do you use?

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:00 pm

honda_silver wrote:

There are more factors then wet clutch, for example:

1. Operational Speed - ...

2. Compression Ratios - ...

3. Horsepower/ Displacement Density - ...

4. Variable Engine Cooling - ...

5. Multiple Lubrication Functionality - ...

6. Inactivity - ...

While I would agree with most of their points in general, many of them won't apply to the SWing:

Regarding points 2 and 3, the compression ratio and hp/L for the SWing are 10.2:1 and about 86 hp/L, respectively. By way of comparison, a base 2010 Civic has 10.5:1 compression and about 78 hp/L (the Si has 11.0:1 and 99 hp/L).

On 4, the cooling system on the SWing is equivalent in design to that of many cars and, from what I've seen and read, seems to do as good a job of keeping the engine temperature in the proper range.

As has been mentioned, point 5 doesn't apply to us, and point 6 simply depends on the rider.

The one that would be of the most concern to us is 1. Our redline (8500) is maybe 1000-2000 rpm higher than a standard small car (base Civic is 6800, although Si is 8000), and our rpm at a given speed is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000 rpm higher than that of a small car. However, we're still within the rpm range of a typical car the vast majority of the time... :-/

I'm not disagreeing with the Amsoil study in general or trying to pick on Bill, I'm simply saying that
on the car-motorcycle engine spectrum, it seems that our particular
engine/drive train leans more toward the car side.

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:29 pm

I'm not advocating one or the other type of oil here, and I enjoy reading all the technical jargon that's being presented, but in my opinion, it doesn't make diddly difference what kind of oil you use if you change it regularly at 3000 miles or so. Personally, I have used Honda motorcycle oil, dino car oil, and currently I'm using Castrol Full Synthetic 10w40, which I will probably continue to use.

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:33 pm

Okeedokey... my reasoning is because I burn up a lot of miles on long distance riding and don't wanna be too bogged down with extra cost if I don't need to. Car motor oil is cheaper than motorcycle oil and much more readily available... BUT I don't wanna put something in my bike if it's gonna damage my Swing. I wanna see if I can get her up to 100k miles.

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:05 pm

Hammy wrote:

Big Bird, what brand and type of oil do you use?

Shell Rotella T6 synthetic 5W-40

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:13 pm

Hammy wrote:

I wanna see if I can get her up to 100k miles.

Rex Jessup in High Point, NC has over 200,000 miles ( http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:To1DDhBw1AcJ:silverwing.org/cgi-bin/topic_show.pl%3Ftid%3D4851+200,000+miles+site:silverwing.org&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us )

_________________
Bill - Georgetown TX 07 Silver Wing ABS

Clearview w/vent, Givi E96/TB19/E52 with Admore Lighting, Alaskan Leather, Wrist Rests, 3M Solas tape, K&N air, Hyperpro spring, Grip Puppies, Airhawk, Utopia backrest, Stebel, Apexcone HIDs, StingerZ LEDs (w/Backoff WigWag), Knight Rider Sequential LED, NGK Iridium, Power Commander III, Manic Salamander, Saeng mirrors, Garmin Zumo 660, Dark-Side Sumitomo Tire

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:15 pm

WOW! I wanna know what HE uses!

Looks like only Honda oil and filters... Considering I just snapped my belt after just 6000 miles of riding and 6 weeks of ownership, maybe I should invest in whatever Honda suggests then... Probably end up paying a premium on that though!

Subject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:44 pm

Don't waste your money on Honda oil and filters if you do your own maintenance. Both are made by outside suppliers. They are no better than the top rated oil and filters and certainly could be worse. If nothing else, they are way more expensive than the best you can buy.

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