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Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeby exavid Yesterday at 11:55 pm

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» exhaust tightness question
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» Front Wobble on Decel
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Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeby exavid Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:48 pm

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Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeby Cosmic_Jumper Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:16 am

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Mighty Mouse
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PostSubject: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2019 2:08 am

My 'new' 2012 Swing with only 10 000km's on the clock. From the time I got her had a head shake if I removed one hand from the bars. Started by doing front wheel balancing; then new rubber; refilled shocks with new oil; checked fork head bearing and lastly even CHANGED THE WHEEL - still a nasty head shake.
There is no shudder when I'm driving with both hands on the bars and she goes perfectly straight otherwise. Just when I'm decelerating and take one hand off the handlebars, the head shake shows up. It's got me stumped!
Do I just live with it? Or is there something else I can try? Any ideas from the guru?
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2019 10:25 am

Minor head shake on deceleration is kinda normal on Silverwings. It’s not the least noticeable with two hands on the bars, but with one hand...

You might check the tire pressure. And try your normal route without the top case attached.

Seems to me I recall reading that too much weight in the rear will effect the steering (head) angle.

Tim
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Dale N.
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2019 3:06 pm

I noticed head shake also with one hand on the bars. But that was when I only had two wheels. Now that it's a trike I haven't noticed it. But then I usually have both hands on the bars unless I'm lighting a cigarette at 70 mph.
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2019 4:26 pm

A tendency to wobble (front wheels wobble, rear wheels weave) is inherent in all two wheelers and is noticeable when slowing down and not holding the bars around 30mph.
All the mechanical components, tyres, weight distribution, road surface, riding style, speed etc will have an effect on when and how noticeable this is.
The manufacture will have put a lot of design thought into making the bike as stable as possible but the laws of physics still apply.
As rider your job is to ensure everything is maintained and set correctly. Don't make any ill considered modifications to take the bike outside of the design envelope unless you really know what you are doing (even if a knobbly tyre on the front, truck tyre on the rear and 20" extended forks seems cool).
And of course keep hold of the handle bars.
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2019 8:47 pm

Live with it. Some tires make it worse. I also don't like it but seems to be normal on this bike.

Steering dampener might help but how to attach it ????
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Mighty Mouse
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12, 2019 4:32 am

Thanks guys. This is my second Swing and it is noticeable in a way that it was not on my previous Swing. I have considered bar end weights, but guess all I have to do is keep both hands on the bars.
motorcycle
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12, 2019 8:17 am

Heavier bar-end weights would improve things. Dunno if they would be a cost effective improvement though.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12, 2019 9:31 am

When I first got my S'Wing there was no head shake noted, it had 8 K miles on the tires but I changed them at about 9 K just on miles, no head shake with these until just lately but I noted it's time for new tires, hmm. I'll check for looseness when I put it up on the lift for maintenance soon, if nothing bad is found I'm betting a new set of tires cures it at least temporarily. I can say this was the case with all my Gold Wings.
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galley skulker
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12, 2019 12:40 pm

I've owned two but ridden about five Silverwings and they all do it to some degree. My friend has bought three brand new from Chiswick Honda (largest Honda dealer in London/UK?) over the years and all three had the wobble from the moment he took delivery.

The first time it happened he turned around and went back to the dealer telling him of the issue. The dealer's response? "Ah, they all do that sir" and for once, it's true!

You should be able to ride one handed, though. I've only experienced it when coasting no-handed, which is a silly thing to do, especially with handlebar muffs....

The geometry, weight, size of wheel, weight dist.etc. are all wrong and the moment anything gets worn, damaged or goes out of adjustment, the thing wobbles about beneath you like a samba dancer at Rio carnival.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12, 2019 2:22 pm

Silver Wings do it, I'm on my third and all three acted the same way. It's a deceleration thing where there's some weight shift toward the front wheel. I've let go with my Kaoko throttle holder set and there was no shake at any speed I've tried. But it's there when deceleratring.

I've owned four Goldwings and every one of them did the same thing. I've changed head bearings, wheel bearings, fork bushings and wheel bearings as well as new tires and different inflation pressures on the GWs and they persisted. A worn tire makes it a bit worse.

With both the bike and the scooter the shudder quits immediately when you put a couple fingers on the bar. Not like my first bike a '49 Triumph Thunderbird. That thing would shake you right off the bike unless you had the fork damper screwed down the amount it wanted at that moment. The bike was much worse, it was a tank slapper if you let it happen.

The scooter only seems to do it when decelerating.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12, 2019 3:02 pm

The scooter only seems to do it when decelerating. <> Agree and thankfully so, mine under 40 mph.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12, 2019 3:07 pm

Even the early Goldwings had the same thing. I had a GL1100 that did it.
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janitorj1
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 13, 2019 9:32 am

It's obviously an undisclosed safety feature. Like a "stick shaker" in a plane. It's purpose is to remind us that if we let go of the handlebar - the handlebar will shake - and that we'd better "get a grip"!

My handlebar shakes too, but I haven't noticed it in a long time, because I am hanging on.

Jon
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 13, 2019 3:00 pm

I just gotta say "told ya so"

https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-wobble-and-weave-making-sense-death-wobble-talk/
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 13, 2019 7:01 pm

Smile small worn tires with a mid to rear placed engine and a fully loaded cargo box ought to be a barrel of fun.
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Sepp
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 14, 2019 12:13 pm

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:
Heavier bar-end weights would improve things. Dunno if they would be a cost effective improvement though.
Yes they are if you keep the old and add some to it

and Mighty Mouse, be happy you still have your bike, I got myself started in the maxi scooter scene with a Burgman 400 K2 years ago for 3000 Euro used and half a year it was stolen and no it could not be ensured against theft.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 14, 2019 2:16 pm

Have any of you guys considered the 'head shake' is merely the Silver Wing's disgust with people riding with no hands on the handlebar?
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Sepp
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 15, 2019 11:03 am

It has a bit to do with the small wheels.
to make things clearer let me quote from my blog, the first entry.
"I was mighty impressed how well the Spidermax was running straight after I took my hands of the handlebar and left them of for more then 10 seconds while the bike was rolling down hill.
The Suzuki Burgman 400 k2 I had was shaking wildly the instant I took my hands of. (13")
The Spidermax behaved even much better, than the Aprilia Pegaso. (17" front"

the stability of 16" front and rear and a low central mass point combined with the steering located inside a 2 piece big aluminum frame
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 15, 2019 3:21 pm

Since the Goldwing does the same thing I seriously doubt it has much to do with wheel size. It's most likely tied to weight distribution and geometry since the action doesn't happen in steady state or accelerating conditions.

I haven't seen any head shake when I apply the throttle holder and remove my hands from the bars at a steady speeds up to 70mph. It only seems to happen on deceleration and then only at fairly low speeds. Under some decelerating conditions my BMW scooter had some similar responses. The Honda GL models all will do it. I don't remember my K1100LTs doing this even thought they also had similar fairings as the GLs.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 15, 2019 5:53 pm

exavid wrote:
Have any of you guys considered the 'head shake' is merely the Silver Wing's disgust with people riding with no hands on the handlebar?

I'd say your comment's nailed it, I don't ride with no hands on the handlebars and never have, I'll occasionally take one hand off the bars to do various helmet things and that's it.

So there's no issues blaming scooter wheel sizes, handlebar end weights, loaded top boxes, worn tyres and all the rest of it.

I suppose one day there'll be a similar post from someone asking why their Silver Wing slows down when they take their right hand off the bars. Rolling Eyes


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Dale N.
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 15, 2019 9:34 pm

Meldrew wrote: "I suppose one day there'll be a similar post from someone asking why their Silver Wing slows down when they take their right hand off the bars."

Why does it? It doesn't do that when I take my hand off the left bar. It doesn't make sense. One does. One doesn't...
Sorry Meldrew, I couldn't help myself.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 16, 2019 12:55 am

Mine may or may not slow down when I take my right hand off the grip. So I won't have to ask that question.
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Sepp
Maxi-Scooter Rider
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Sepp

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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 17, 2019 11:34 am

It was one of the points Honda did address when they designed the newer SWT (I just came back them their Japanese site and read all about the things they improved.
Funny thin is in Japan it is still called the Silver Wing (GT)
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.honda.co.jp%2Fnews%2F2009%2F2090309-silverwing.html

I love especially this part:"This time, after a full model change for the first time in eight years, the model is suitable for the name of the GT, embodying a high-grade appearance and a powerful and comfortable ride."
you gotta love these PR guys and their antics...
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 17, 2019 7:03 pm

Dunno what Honda may have done to “address” head shake. At 28° 30’ / 105 mm Caster/Trail the steering is exactly the same as our FSC/FJS models. They did say that they’ve done something to the handlebars and handlebar mount. But I don’t see how that would effect decel steering head shake —unless perhaps they also added heavier bar end weights.

But too, as exavid says that head shake has been around for decades on the GLs so I think that if it was a matter of concern Honda would have addressed the issue a long time ago.

And like Dale said, you’re just gonna have to wait until you’re stopped at a traffic signal to light your cigar. It took him a lot of burnt eyebrows before he came to that flash of understanding.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 17, 2019 9:40 pm

I don't remember which model it was, probably the GL1100 that Honda hung a pretty large lead weight to the frame just behind the steering shaft. It was on the first run of faired Goldwings. Some people took the weights off their bikes and developed some pretty nasty wobbles. By adding the weight to the frame right behind the steering shaft, the oscillating period was reduced to a level that it couldn't feed energy into the system enough to resonate which prevented the serious oscillations the bike had. Later GLs had a slightly different geometry in the front which reduced the problem to the minor shake we have now until the stiffer aluminum frames came into the series.

One could add add more weight in the bar ends but that could just as well move the wobble to a different speed range that could be dangerous. Harley Davidson had had a modle with a serious high speed wobble that was dangerous a few years back. I believe they made some changes to those models. I don't know if anyone ever sued or if the y just replaced the bikes that had the problem. Resonant vibes can even take down some big buildings. I remember reading about a new skyscraper that developed a very nasty twisting oscillation in the wind to the point there had to be changes in some of the building's shape to prevent the wobble from possibly destroy the building.
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Sepp
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18, 2019 4:28 am

When I was looking for my next bike I rode the old model Silver Wing 400 and the new model SW-T400
From my personal log:
Steering Head Shake Silver%2Bwing
I found a 2009 400 Silver Wing (old model), tried it with only 30.000km and the experience was like similar to the Kymco.  My wife and I agreed after the first 2 minutes - NO WAY - not only a horrible slow acceleration comparable to an old 50ps non turbo Jetta diesel but also the very bad hill climbing capacity combined with a wobbly ride and the seating positions were less than optimal.
... sigh
Steering Head Shake Swt400%2Banuncio
Then another Silver Wing 400 from 2009 but the new model with a fancy designed top case. I read a lot of good test scores in the ride reviews about the newer model (2009) of the Honda Silver Wing called SW-T400 or SWT-600.
We rode the Honda directly in our place, tried the 16% incline 2 up and were quite happy. The way this bike was behaving, except a slight steering bar wobble around 40kmh with relaxed hands, was like my 6 roller conversion on the modified Spidermax. Somebody must have tinkered with the CVT.

That wobble was down hill in motor brake only mode.
Since I installed the additional weight the wobble is much reduced.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18, 2019 6:42 am

#1 bikes used to come with steering dampers---really nice in sidecar operation.

#2 Honda CB750's beginning 1969, had head shake on de-cel

#3 two hands on bars, good idea on sometimes unstable scooters
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18, 2019 2:33 pm

There must have been something wrong with a Silverwing that has a problem with hills. I've ridden mine up a steep paved road on a local hill (3000' elevation gain in four miles), and on I5 near the California/Oregon border on a stretch that has a couple of truck escape traps on the downhill side. Never felt the Silverwing was under-powered for what it is.

On the ones I've owned including my current one the CVT handles changes in hill slopes very well.
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18, 2019 8:38 pm

exavid wrote:
There must have been something wrong with a Silverwing that has a problem with hills. I've ridden mine up a steep paved road on a local hill (3000' elevation gain in four miles), and on I5 near the California/Oregon border on a stretch that has a couple of truck escape traps on the downhill side. Never felt the Silverwing was under-powered for what it is.

On the ones I've owned including my current one the CVT handles changes in hill slopes very well.

I believe he was test riding an original Swing 400. He modified his current Swing 400 to only use four of the eight CVT weights. He claims to have better acceleration from stop and for steeper inclines and for riding two-up.
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: Steering Head Shake   Steering Head Shake I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 19, 2019 1:16 pm

Small wheels and scooter geometry. Mine shakes when I take both hands off but not when one hand off. It's all down to tyres and sound head bearings I guess. If it's fine when hanging on, and the bike goes where you put it, don't worry about it thumbs up
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