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Sepp
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider
Sepp

Number of posts : 80
Location : west of the Sahara
Points : 131
Registration date : 2019-10-09

EXTREME CVT TUNING  Empty
PostSubject: EXTREME CVT TUNING    EXTREME CVT TUNING  I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10, 2019 9:57 am

Bear with me, we need to slide into the story...
OK my ride for the last 11 Years was a Malaguti Spidermax GT. I got her with just 4000km and warranty left.
The only scooter with 16" wheels front and back, a tmax style aluminum front frame, a Kim Kardashian size Trunk. what could hold a 15 " Laptop in original package, 12 liter bottles of Strawberry Daiquiri or 9 six-packs beer. It dwarfed the 650 Burgman from behind.
A 460cc Piaggio engine (like all 500 Euro scooters) 160 kmh vmax
In Italy they took design elements of the C1 Corvette and did a nice blend to make it a very unique bike.

Enough of the foreplay lets get to the point. It was a gorgeous bike except the engine had 2 bad points. The community called it strangled sea lion (slipping belt screeching) and paint shaker (when you tried to go up into the mountains and the RPM was below 3000 in the uphill hairpin turns the belt was flapping badly even Piaggio installed a big anti flapper wheel between the motor and the clutch pulleys.

I had no idea that different roller weights could make a difference, but picked it up in the forums.
I thought what would happen when you remove 2 from the 8 rollers?
I tried and I had a different reacting bike -much more sporty and faster acceleration.
OK I thought what If I remove 2 rollers more and just ride with 4 - will they break, will the rpm go all over the place or what?

One way to find out.
And that led me to an very interesting place.
I call it the Homer Simpson place, because you could her me reving up the engine and it pressed me so hard in the saddle that there were a lot og Wo Hoooooooooooooos. Riding up and down out little village.

I had a totally different machine.
Instant slingshot like acceleration, no more strangled sea lion or paint shaker.

The rest is history, I rode the Malaguti 460cc for 75000km - 55000 of these km were with 4 rollers instead of 8.
And no, the gas usage did not go up (documented over 5000km) it did not increase since I rode mostly in the optimal torque band.
The belt what I changed at 35.000 km (half with 8 rollers and half with 4) is in a much worse shape (still in working condition)
as my second OEM belt what looks with 40.000 like new
It is all documented in by blog with pictures and response from other People who copied my crazy antics.

I tinkered for 4 Years and over 50 time opening the CVT and using an electrical impact wrench to to loosen the 2 screws for both pulleys with no ill effect.
I wanted to know it is a weight thing or else, so I made myself 8 (each 10.5 gram) rollers with the same combined weight as the 4 rollers (each 21 gram that is the standard weight for this engine).
A total disaster.
So it is not about the combined weight it is how you place what much.

I figured out an optimal setup for each area you ride in most.
I fine tuned with changing some washer sizes what Piaggio installed to have more space on the driving pulley.

You find it all documented here (without any adds or other crap)

malaguti-spidermax.blogspot.com


Last edited by Sepp on Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : editit for typos and added / removed parts for clarification.)
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http://malaguti-spidermax.blogspot.com/
Sepp
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider
Sepp

Number of posts : 80
Location : west of the Sahara
Points : 131
Registration date : 2019-10-09

EXTREME CVT TUNING  Empty
PostSubject: better understand what this extreme tuning does   EXTREME CVT TUNING  I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 10, 2019 11:12 am

When my second Spidermax with the cursed 500cc engine died at 18.000km (11.000 miles) because Piaggio went Boeing 737 MAX on some parts too I had to look for something else.

I tested a Kymco 500 Xciting with less millage -bought to ride to work on a highway with 120 kmh max (75 mph), he found it to slow.
Riding it alone uphill and stopped on a steep grade to start with WOT the was no power at all to move this carburetor engine.
It felt like a low powered diesel engine.

My second test was a 2009 Honda Silver Wing 400 -the old model. She had less than 30.000 km (18.500 miles) and a very oily underbelly. And we both needed less than one minute to decide this bike is crap. Extreme slow acceleration, not very stable and the acceleration up a low steep straight road was horrible.
- Both bikes were with the original CVT factory setup-


Now we talk about the SilverWing or SW-T400 what Honda printed on the side.
The 460 cc Piaggio had 39 hp and a max torque of 37 (rear wheel) from 5000 to 6500 rmp straight horizontal line, the 400cc Honda has near identical hp and I have not been able do find a hp and torque curve.
If anybody has some info, input is appreciated.

When I got my SiWi less than 2 months ago some nice person had already installed 21 gram Malossi instead of the 26 gram original Honda setup. This is why I brought her, she already performed quite snappy.
The 3rd owner bought her one year ago with good 60.000km and told me she run very unenthusiastic and sluggish, so he asked his mechanic if he could do something and he installed the lightest Malossi rollers for the 400cc twin Honda. 3rd owner was happy for a year until he wanted more and better acceleration like the T-MAX 500.

Back to my findings

So I ordered for the second time (first time for the Spidermax) Pulley sliders. Now with ramp and wings. (red bull anybody?)
I did choose the 26 gram since I wanted to do the same as I did with the Spidermax a nice sporty setup with half the original roller weight.
Now my riding conditions are kind of not normal. I have a 2 meter(yard)flat ramp where my wife hops on and then it is directly a 16% incline up the hills.
I could test it with the 21 gram Malossi before I bought the siwi and she did good. Even she is 30kg heavier than the Spidermax.

I thought I could transfer what I learned from 460cc Piaggio 1 to1 from one bike to the other.
NOPE did not work that way.

Back to the new sliders 4x 26 gram worked very well, highway 120kmh (75miles per hour) at short below 7000 rpm - BUT in the low speed cruising through winding flatish roads and through the woods with 30 to 60 kmh (19 to 37 mph) she was at 4000 to 6000 rpm.
I did not like that.

So after tinkering 8 times with different roller and weight setup I am pretty close to perfect FOR ME AND MY AREA.
I made the 4 26 gram Pulleys more heavy, first they were 29 gram, now they are 32 gram each.
That results to slingshot acceleration, 25kmh (16mph) up a steep and winding mountain road with 4000 rpm and my wife behind me. 6500 rpm at 120kmh and 3500 to 5000 rpm in the 30 to 60 kmh (19 to 37 mph) area.

An added benefit what I already discovered with the Spidermax is that the higher RPM in slow riding conditions, curvy roads or at pedestrian speed the bike is very stable. I think it is like a gyroscopic stabilizer effect.

Again the gas millage is not effected with these mods if you ride like you did before.
If you go to the Homer Simpson place with lots of pressing you in the saddle acceleration and wo hooooooooooo you pay 10% more at the pump for that fun.

So it all depends where you ride and what kind of acceleration you want to have in case you need it (like passing or crossing an intersection with bad sight on the traffic).

With my 32 gram setup in 4 Tech Pulleys you got it all.

Here you got all the weights what are available, for the 400 i would go now with the heaviest 600 Sliders what are 28 gram. Then I could test 31 and 34 gram.
drpulley.info/drpulley_docs/Typenliste.htm
scroll down to Silverwing 400, 28x20, 26gr.

Picture 3 gram inserts installed
https://servimg.com/view/20122288/4


Last edited by Sepp on Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added and improoved for better understanding)
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http://malaguti-spidermax.blogspot.com/
Sepp
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider
Sepp

Number of posts : 80
Location : west of the Sahara
Points : 131
Registration date : 2019-10-09

EXTREME CVT TUNING  Empty
PostSubject: Re: EXTREME CVT TUNING    EXTREME CVT TUNING  I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 11, 2019 12:13 pm

For all people who like the conventional 8 rollers setup, if you are aiming for VMax take
600 8x 24 or 25 gram
400 8x 22-23 gram
you can go 1 gram lower that was the weight of my Malossies 21  gram the the 400
they were very nice for straight streets, but no comparison for what she is now.

The owner after doing all kind of services by a mechanic sold it because he wanted to have a more responding and better accelerating 500cc T-Max.
If he got it I invite him for a ride up the mountains, maybe I let him ride the 400 to show him what he could have done with 60 Euro and a bit of tinkeling or is is tinkering?
(I have a bladder infection and 3 times 30 min shivering fits for the last 24 hours. My teeth clatter and moaning combined would make a beautiful Halloween background sound track)

WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS?

- no more squealing from the belt
- no more flapping from the belt
- belt last (proven) longer
- no more glazed clutch pads
- no more blue clutch bell
- spark plugs look like new longer
- Cylinder sides look like new (highly polished after 75.0000km) and piston top has a uniform burn image with no sediments.
- engine runs much smoother
- instant clutch engage if needed (uphill) from idle to 5000 rpm in 1 sec.
- not more money at the pump with your identical riding style
- a happy bike and a happy owner (proven for 55.000 km with the Piaggio 460cc engine and also for 1500 km on the siwi 400 and counting)

WHAT IS THE DOWNSIDE

after 55.000 km test I can honestly tell you there is none!
But use the Dr.Pulleys or the Tech Pulleys because they are engineered to last and have no problem carrying the weight on only 4 sliders. Also the polymer lasts much longer than the usual rollers (up to 5 times)
All 2 years or 20.000km (12.000 miles) when you check on the pulleys switch them into the unused 4 slots of the pulley for even wear.
...and if they finally wear out, you use the 4 new ones you still have left.


Last edited by Sepp on Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:18 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added additional information)
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http://malaguti-spidermax.blogspot.com/
Sepp
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider
Sepp

Number of posts : 80
Location : west of the Sahara
Points : 131
Registration date : 2019-10-09

EXTREME CVT TUNING  Empty
PostSubject: Re: EXTREME CVT TUNING    EXTREME CVT TUNING  I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 17, 2019 9:07 pm

changed my avatar to show one of the actual modified Tech Pulleys to 31.5g where just 4 instead of 8 do their magic in my Honda´s CTV.
OH MY GOSH just this moment Felicia Day`s Avatar song popped into my mind.
wanna hear and see?
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http://malaguti-spidermax.blogspot.com/
Sepp
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider
Sepp

Number of posts : 80
Location : west of the Sahara
Points : 131
Registration date : 2019-10-09

EXTREME CVT TUNING  Empty
PostSubject: Re: EXTREME CVT TUNING    EXTREME CVT TUNING  I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 19, 2019 8:26 pm

OK this post is finished and I put all additional info and findings on my blog (see profile) under:
All good things must come to an end (TNG) ... and a new beginning.
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http://malaguti-spidermax.blogspot.com/
Sepp
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider
Sepp

Number of posts : 80
Location : west of the Sahara
Points : 131
Registration date : 2019-10-09

EXTREME CVT TUNING  Empty
PostSubject: Re: EXTREME CVT TUNING    EXTREME CVT TUNING  I_icon_minitimeYesterday at 1:21 pm

Just a quick update.
I finally found my fisheye lens and now my cell phone/GPS can look over the dashboard and I can capture the scenery and the dashboard from the center handlebar mount. Sorry for the bad quality but bright sunlight and a dashboard in the shade equals some heavy brightness adjustment or you only see the scenery.
I proudly present:
Honda SW-T400 0 to 135kmh (0 to 85mph) in 14 sec
https://youtu.be/JNnAygZrLs0
and
Honda SW-T400 30 to 100kmh (20mph to 65mph) in 5 sec
https://youtu.be/KweOvzzR7z8
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http://malaguti-spidermax.blogspot.com/
 
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