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 Reg/Rec: 2002 location

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Shaft
Scooter Rider
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Number of posts : 12
Location : Kent, The Garden of England
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Registration date : 2018-06-16

PostSubject: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:07 am

Afternoon

So I discovered last week my reg/rec has packed up and I've spent the last few days researching methods for accessing it, including threads here and Youtube videos.

Convinced I had the wherewithall to complete the job, this afternoon I commenced the task of removing the front fairing (why so many fixings, of so many different varieties?) and imagine my surprise when I discovered my regulator isn't where it should be (behind the right front indicator) and never has been - no bracket, no sign of a wiring loom that's been moved, nothing Shocked

So before I reduce the bike to it's component parts, anyone got a clue at to where I might look next?

(It's not behind the right hand side panel either, I've already looked)

TYA

Shaft
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Shaft
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:20 pm

Update: Found it!

Located behind the LH side panel, immediately in front of the rear indicator.

It's mounted, via security Torx bolts, to an aluminium plate, which is in turn bolted to a factory frame bracket, so it looks as though it's always been there - anyone come across this before?

This presents me with two fundamental problems:

1. Because of it's position, the multi-coloured plug isn't a problem, but the yellow plug now has to travel virtually half the length of the bike, then across the top of the engine, to mate with the stator plug, mounted on the frame behind the RH footpeg plate - this means the new item I have bought is useless.

2. I can't find a listing anywhere for the part I actually need.

Once again, can anyone help?

TYA

Shaft
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:44 pm

So what part is it that you actually need?

Those R/R are pretty much universal. The difference being in the wire harness (length as opposed to terminal configuration). 

That (3 yellow wire) stator connector is famous for burning due to weak connection. It can be bypassed with the proper gauge wire --12 ga IIRC.

Also the parts list for 2002 FSC600 shows the R/R located at the right front, above the coolant tank. Perhaps you are in the UK (you only mention your location as Kent) and FJS models are different and/or yours is actually a late model 2001 (which weren't imported to North America) and that explains the different location.

If you are in the UK, check with our member Siataukreg. He is a breaker and perhaps can help you with your dilemma. 

Do let us know how you get on with this. We all benefit from shared information.

Tim
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siataukreg
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:49 am

Looks like you have a 2001 scoot has it got the light switch on the right side switch gear if so then it is a 2001 all later models had the light switch done away with, regulator was fitted at the rear the alloy plate is a heat disperse plate its not fitted when reg. is front mounted as on later scoots if you need one of the later type i have one it will fit you just need to use the original yellow plug and wires easy
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Shaft
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Number of posts : 12
Location : Kent, The Garden of England
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:26 pm

Yep, looks like you guys are right, I have a 2001 model, registered in 2002.

As a result, I've already bought a reg/rec for a 2002 model onwards, which I can't send back - this features two wiring tails, a red/green/black, which will fit my original wiring and a 3 way yellow group, which is about 5 feet too short.

It would seem that nobody produces a pattern part for this model, which leaves me with two practical options - buy a still available part from Honda at around £250/$330 (my pattern part cost £70/$92) or come up with a hack to fit the part I already have.

As I'm also of the "A tight budget is the mother of invention" frame of mind, the former is a non starter, so what I need is a way of extending my yellow group.

I could just chop the wires from my original loom and new part, then solder the ends together, but that makes it more difficult for me, or any subsequent owner, if the job needs to be done again.

Fortunately, in the UK we have company called Electrexworld, that make a pattern replacement stator, which comes with a broken down multiplug kit - a quick call to them netted me a plug kit, which means a bit of wire stripping and crimping should give me a plug and play conversion from the '1 year only' early reg/rec, to the easily available (and substantially cheaper) later version.

I'll let you know if it all goes wrong Crying or Very sad
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:41 pm

Here's a link to a source for the Yazaki-type plug & terminals for that yellow-wire stator to R/R harness. 

http://www.cycleterminal.com/yazaki-312.html


Tim
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Shaft
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:17 am

The saga continues.

Having found a way of adapting the yellow group, I turned my attention to the other tail, the one that I thought would just plug straight in.

Turns out I should've looked a bit harder, because the wiring group on my new part consists of two red, two green and a black wire, the existing bike wiring has no black wire at all - anyone know if this wire absolutely has to have a corresponding connection, or could I just ignore it?
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:32 pm

Here is a link to an earlier, very interesting, conversation regarding a R/R replacement & upgrade. Be sure to read the entire topic:

 http://www.silverwing600.com/t9563-regulator-rectifier-upgrade

Granted this is about switching to a non-OEM R/R but if you follow the topic it will probably get you the answer to your question about the Bk wire. If you could find a wiring diagram for the 2001 FJS it would sure enhance your understanding.

AFAIK most Asian bikes, & scoots, etc. use a "similar" Shindengen R/R. Usually the Shindengen part number is stamped on the underside of the R/R.

Another Shindengen discussion link:  https://www.rc51forums.com/forums/60-how-articles/6540-how-shindengen-mosfet-regulator-rectifier.html

Tim
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Shaft
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:32 pm

In a further update, I eventually managed to adapt my new reg/rec to fit the bike, tested the voltages and it all looked good, so I embarked on my 25 mile trip from work to home.

Everything was going well and, as it was food time, I stopped at my local supermarket, 3 miles from home.

Chucked my dinner in the top box, hit the starter and experienced that sinking feeling that accompanies a couple of slow turns and lots of clicks..........battery was dead flat Rolling Eyes

Had the bike recovered back to work (that was me getting home at 10pm, having started out at 6) and, next day, did a few tests.

Stator wires showing varying resistances and voltage output is under 13, dropping with increasing engine speed; conclusion, dead stator.

The new one turned up today, so tomorrow I will be fitting it, fingers crossed.

I don't have access to a workshop manual, so I will be using amateur mechanic's intuition and a bit of help from Cosmic Jumper's 'Bad Stator' threads.

Wish me luck!
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Shaft
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:47 am

Well, that job went very bad, very quickly!

Try as I might, I couldn't undo the oil drain plug, so I decided to suffer having oil pouring out of the cover and set about removing it.

First thing, remove the swing arm pivot - using only hand tools, I rounded the centre out of not one, but both of the T50s Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

I'm giving up now, going home and having a few beers, while I contemplate how I'm going to win the fight against this SOB Rolling Eyes
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:08 pm

Regarding the drain plug see third picture here bud >>>>> http://www.silverwing600.com/t10594-engine-drain-bolt
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Shaft
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:43 pm

Thanks Bern, I had seen that but I didn't have a jack that low to hand.

These are the bolts I was trying to undo



Was I doing something wrong?

Before they rounded off, I got a fraction of a millimeter of movement, accompanied by that metallic ting you get, when you've broken a corrosion seal on a bolt that has a nut on the back of it.

Should I have been undoing something else?
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:14 pm

Now that it may be cracked loose you may try a liberal application of PB Blaster or other penetrating oil, the tighten loosen hopefully it will loosen each time. As for the drain plug? I'd just bust it off, then remove it one way or the other, clean the threads and put in a new plug.
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:59 am

Bugger,(I was in Tonbridge last Wednesday) those do tend to corrosion seal (lack of grease during assembly) if the heads are rounded out your best bet will be to 'hammer fit' a spline key into them, the shock caused by hitting the key in will help loosen the corrosion bond.

As suggested by oldwingguy above use some release agent, if you can find it Plus gas is good on corroded fixings


Last edited by The Bern on Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:12 am

You will also need to remove the (plastic) cover to the left of those bolts bud, there is a third bolt you behind said cover.

Torque for thos 3 bolts is 25 lb/ft 3.5kg/m 34N/m

Torque for stator bolts is 9 lb/ft 1.2 kg/m 12 N/m

You will need silicone seal for the casing as there is no paper gasket. It's worth putting a good 'dollop' of seal around the grommets as they are prone to oil weepage over a period of time.
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Shaft
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:03 pm

Thanks for the info, I had a feeling there might be something behind that cover.

Am I right in thinking that when I remove that pivot, there's a bearing in there that will need lubricating - any recommendations as to what type of grease to use?

I actually work in a garage (we do cars) so I've got access to pretty much anything I might need; I'll be giving those bolts a good soaking in Wurth Rost-Off and using copper anti seize on the replacements.
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:22 am

No mention in the handbook of bearing lubrication bud, I guess it's a sealed for life jobbie.
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:07 pm

The bearing is just a roller bearing. Swing arm pivots from stator cover any good grease will work. Just a pivot doesn't turn much.

Try hammering a 6 sided socket in there. Twist socket might also work. Fits over the head of bolt and bites on rounded bolt heads. Heat it up micro torch but not to much. Torch will most likely damage finish though.

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Shaft
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:33 pm

Update:

Tried hammering in the next size up (T-55) but that driver is 2mm larger and it just wouldn't go.

I did think about trying to cram in an Allen driver, but if that didn't work, I was faced with the possibility of drilling, which I didn't fancy at all.

Luckily, we have access to a mobile engineer who specialises in removing things that won't come out, or have broken in the attempt; usually, it's stuff like glow plugs or injectors, but he does bolts as well, so I got him in to have a crack at them.

Fortunately, he was successful (as he almost always is) so now I can get on with the meat of the job; I'm still toying with the idea of replacing those Torx bolts with conventional hex heads, as I'm not convinced that Torx are the answer on exposed bolts that hardly ever need to come out, even if you use anti seize.

Anyway, tune in for the next exciting episode at the weekend Laughing
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:54 pm

Good it's apart now more to do. Those bolts need to come out at every tire change it's the only way to remove right swing arm.

I'd stick with Torx bolts can't cost that much. I don't remember the torque value but its not high 40 maybe? Honda makes a special liquid sealant for the stator wire rubber seals. I'll have to search for it later.
Honda Bond 4 found it.
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Shaft
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:50 pm

So, hopefully my final update on this thread, as I got the stator replacement job done today.

This is definitely one of those tasks that's easy when you know how, so I have a few observations for anyone who hasn't done it.

When removing a stubborn oil drain plug, The Bern's tip for applying upward pressure to your ratchet works like a charm. I have no idea what Honda were thinking when they designed such a shallow head on an item made of soft alloy, but the jack trick works.

The swing arm pivot cover can be stubborn to get off, because it's doweled into the main arm and the dowels seize - a bit of judicious prying should free it off, some copper anti seize on the dowels will stop it happening again.

You don't need to remove the exhaust to do this job, but you will need to take off that oval wire heat shield, to get straight on one of the cover bolts.

Staying with the bolts, most of them are 12mm, but the four lowest ones (that run inline with the exhaust) are 10mm - you can't really see the rearmost of these, but you can get at it with a ratchet ring spanner. While you can undo it fully, the exhaust will prevent you taking the bolt out completely, so don't forget to put it back in it's hole, prior to refitting the cover.

It's also worth mentioning the 12mm bolts are all the same length, except 2 - the longer ones go at the 12 o clock position and the furthest forward.

You will need to disconnect the parking brake cable, undo all the brackets that you can see on the frame and swinging arm and tuck it out of the way. Similarly, undo the rear brake pipe brackets, including the little block, where the flexi pipe meets the solid line; this gives you clearance to get the engine cover off.

If you're struggling to get the cover off, Honda helpfully provided a pry point - you can't see it, but you can feel it, at about the 11 o clock position.

As you take the cover off, be careful as there are 2 gears that can come out with it, along with their dowels. These form the connection between the starter pinion and the ring gear on the back of the rotor - the double gear goes back first (fine teeth to the rear, to mesh with the starter) large single gear second.

For sealant, I used black RTV, which never totally hardens, so it's good at vibration resistance. It's what we use in the workshop all the time, so I'm not expecting any issues, if there are I will report back.

No particular problems putting it all back together, just remember to anti seize everything you might want to take apart again (especially the pivot cover Torx bolts! contrary to what has been previously stated, you don't need to remove these to take out the rear wheel) and put a thin smear of grease on the pivot needle roller bearing.

And that, fingers crossed, is that.

Head bearings next...............................oh joy pale
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: Reg/Rec: 2002 location   Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:39 pm

Back on the road again. You are correct about not removing swing arm pivot cover when replacing rear tire. My mistake. Service manual states to remove it but just enough room to get right arm out .
Mine was stuck on dowels the first time also. Torque is 25lbs on bolts.
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