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 Help! rattle from transmission

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RazorbackUofA
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PostSubject: Help! rattle from transmission    Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:51 pm

the past 8 mons ive had a very minor issue with a noise that i passed off as belt flutter.

4 weeks ago i destroyed the main wheel axle bearing in the final drive, i ground off a few dings i found on 2 gear cogs, cleaned out the gear box, resembled and noticed a distinctive noise that resembles some thing loose and rubbing but not continually only when decelerating 3 times ive dismantled the tranny inspected the variator and clutch assemble, to find zero issues with the belt and clutch, i used a sound rod on the gear box, and behind variator wall by crankshaft, is very silent,

when the clutch is engaged and under acceleration the noise is not very noticeable, only when coasting is it very noticeable.

i recorded the noise .. but over look the wind noise and listen to the rattle from the tranny.

this has me stumped,

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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:47 pm

Could it be some of the extra stuff you added to bike---rattling? Or look to insides of muffler shaking?
Never a problem for me in 90,000 plus SilverWing miles, but in 175,000 HELIX MILES, 4 different purchased new ones, At about 30,000 miles guts of mufflerb roke loose---my case Honda replaced under warranty.
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siataukreg
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:09 am

If you need a fresh transmission i have a couple for sale both are ABS type, inner casing with gears intact eBay item number:202333282338 i can send this at your cost from UK
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:16 am

Before anything else I'd go over all fasteners ect. to check tightness and remove everything loose from under the seat and boxes, seat down and LATCHED.
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RazorbackUofA
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:07 pm

siataukreg wrote:
If you need a fresh transmission i have a couple for sale both are ABS type, inner casing with gears intact eBay item number:202333282338 i can send this at your cost from UK

ty but that will probably be to expensive, and its not anything from outside the belt cover, i suspect the clutch but after looking at schematics of all its parts, i could not find anything broke or loose.

sounds like something is loose but cant find it.
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lcgraham
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:20 pm

My first thought is worn roller/slider weights or the rear clutch pads. When was the last time you had checked them for wear and when did you last replace them?
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lcgraham
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:24 pm

A second thought that occurred after revisiting the audio file is a valve adjustment. Unless you are skilled at it, this is something the dealer should perform.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:45 pm


4 weeks ago i destroyed the main wheel axle bearing in the final drive, <<>>

I turned off the TV sound and cranked up your video sound, SWAG, any damage to the bearing seat? slightly out of round? under load tightened up i.e pulled to a given spot no load allowed to go where it pleases and rattles around. Did you rotate the bearing by hand / finger and see if you could feel roughness?
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RazorbackUofA
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:44 pm

posted pics of the dissembled tranny there.

http://www.silverwing600.com/t10543-final-drive-gear-issue

and yes i inspected it very closely, cleaned and checked all areas of the gear box, i did grind some burs off that got there when the bearing broke but not enough to of ballance it and the tuneing rod found zero noise from the gears.  then  ran it with the belt cover off and used tuning rod to listen for any noise thats not supposed to be there.    i flooded the oil bath bearings with oil and used air to blow them out as i thought it might be part of the destroyed Bering in there.  have drove it to work last 2 days trying to listen and rack my brain,  the noise stops when the tranny is coasting, clutch disengaged,  

BUUUT i did notice a bit of off balance with the outer belt front drive, not matching the variator side.

i put a centering device on the crankshaft centered and zero deviation, with enging running, that outside cone could be the issue.

i also chked the clutch 3 times found nothing broke or damaged.

i will take the cover off again sat and take a vid
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:34 am

Sounds like your doing a good job trying to sort it out, notice any " brighter " wear points anywhere.
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RazorbackUofA
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:13 am



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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:33 am

While you have the cases off, try removing the drive belt & see if it makes the same noises, at least that might give a guide as to which end to look at
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:38 am

A point also worth remembering is that the clutch end may make differnt noises with the cover removed, due to having no support bearing for the outer end shaft.
How polished is the inner face of the casing at the top ?
Is that your rebuilt drive or the one you bought second hand ?
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:12 pm

If bike is new leftover---take it to HONDA for warrany. Old you are on your own...Or ride bike until something breaks.
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:17 pm

Could it be a worn belt? Or maybe a wrong belt if just replaced?
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:04 pm

Another thought .... I seem to think in another thread you said the splines in the wheel were worn ? If that's the case, try removing the wheel & see if noises deminish/disappear.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:08 pm

LThe Bern wrote:
Another thought .... I seem to think in another thread you said the splines in the wheel were worn ?  If that's the case, try removing the wheel & see if noises deminish/disappear.

Now that I think about it. I recall a similar noise from a friend's SW after he, inadvertently, left the swingarm-to-wheel spacer off his SW which resulted in the wheel splines becoming worn. Worn to the point that there was noticeable play in the wheel if it was grabbed and shaken at the 3 & 9 o'clock position.

It doesn't take much for those steel splines on the axle shaft to enlarge the alloy wheel splines.
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:12 pm

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:
LThe Bern wrote:
Another thought .... I seem to think in another thread you said the splines in the wheel were worn ?  If that's the case, try removing the wheel & see if noises deminish/disappear.

Now that I think about it. I recall a similar noise from a friend's SW after he, inadvertently, left the swingarm-to-wheel spacer off his SW which resulted in the wheel splines becoming worn. Worn to the point that there was noticeable play in the wheel if it was grabbed and shaken at the 3 & 9 o'clock position.

It doesn't take much for those steel splines on the axle shaft to enlarge the alloy wheel splines.

I purchased a 2004 Swing last year and didn't notice the rear wheel wobble. The bike came with a trike kit and didn't notice it until I tried adjusting the parking brakes. The PO did not re-install the outer axle spacer. This caused the wheel splines to wear causing the wobble upon inspection. The wobble caused the rear disc rotor to wear both brake calipers and part of the swing arm. Hopefully I will be able to get back to Idaho to do repairs. I have the necessary parts. Just need to rebuild both calipers.

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RazorbackUofA
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:06 pm

TY and yes i replaced the wheel.

as for the belt i have 2 and tried both. its not the belt the noise is metallic,

to day i went by the only 2 cycle repair shops and showed them the vids [SW still on jacks] 1st had no idea, 2nd shop suggested wore our clutch component /s such as one of the 6 springs not pulling back all the way

http://prntscr.com/jvjj6h
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RazorbackUofA
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:11 pm

The Bern wrote:
A point also worth remembering is that the clutch end may make differnt noises with the cover removed, due to having no support bearing for the outer end shaft.
How polished is the inner face of the casing at the top ?
Is that your rebuilt drive or the one you bought second hand ?

no all i did to the gear box was replace the wheel axle sealed bearing and oil, dist seal, and cleaned it out of all debris from the destroyed bearing, a few minor dings on the gears ground off the worse one and the others i can see but  cant detect the bur by using a knife edge to find it.

used rubbin alcohol to clean the belt tracks, then tried useing belt dressing to make the belt grip better JUST to see if it was the belt. nope, cleaned dressing back off.
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:48 am

RazorbackUofA wrote:
a few minor dings on the gears ground off the worse one and the others i can see but  cant detect the bur by using a knife edge to find it.

Ahhh, try running the gears together slowly with fine valve grinding paste, where there is a 'ding' there will be a bump, it may well not have a burr but have a smooth raised edge instead.
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RazorbackUofA
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:45 pm




FOUND IT dang that was hiding very well.

a wore clutch pad had an exposed metal pc recon its part of the pad, but ground it down and now no noise, that pc of pertruding metal was hitting the clutch drum when decelerating.

will be ok till i can installed new springs and pads ordered from babbits.

http://prntscr.com/jvq6b8 pertruding metal from clutch pad
http://prntscr.com/jvq6nu where it was hitting the drum every 5 inches
http://prntscr.com/jvq76z clean housing
http://prntscr.com/jvq7gz cleaned up clutch assembly
http://prntscr.com/jvq7w0 call the maid
http://prntscr.com/jvq8hr front drive cleaned up nicely
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RazorbackUofA
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:49 pm

I hope this is added to everyone data bank for "what can go wrong" and TY to all of you for your advice.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:00 pm

Three thumbs up for persistence and solving the problem. Smile the shiny spot / area.
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SylSki
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:06 am

Was this a constant rattle even at idle or when doing fast start moving?
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RazorbackUofA
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PostSubject: Re: Help! rattle from transmission    Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:13 pm

only when decelerating, apparently only when the clutch pads were not engaging the clutch drum
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