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 ABS Transplant and restoration.

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anothergxg
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PostSubject: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:18 am

Thank you for the warm welcome!
I initially planned to start the work yesterday around 6 PM. Unfortunately things didn't work as planned, so I started around 8:30 PM.

I had some hard time removing the rear brake caliper. It was very stuck and I figured it would be a great idea to remove the brake line, so maybe the pistons would move a bit, so I can remove the caliper. About 30 minutes of work I was able to remove 1 brake pad and then the caliper was removed pretty easy. Unfortunately, the pistons are very stuck, I will need a big compressor to pull them out.


I then removed the transmission cover. Things look good for a 90k km. If I'm lucky, I'll be able to use the clutch for my old bike. I still need some tools in order to remove the transmission parts



The last thing I did was to remove the fairings. I still have some left. It was past midnight by that time...

Tonight I hope I'll be able to check the electrical system. Check the charging and all the connections. for some reason the brake light doesn't turn on and the ABS light stays on all the time.
I also want to check the front caliper. For starters, it doesn't look so stuck as the rear one.
I'll keep you posted.


Last edited by Cosmic_Jumper on Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:54 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : x)
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:25 am

Thanks for the photos. You may have some luck soaking those stuck pistons with penetrating oil to free them. It looks as if they only have ~5mm more to go before they come out.

Here is a link to a YouTube video for a removing the Front Cover: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5uv2qyxA-AA

There are lots of helpful Silverwing videos by SWCI (Silver Wing Club Italy) if you search for them. Unfortunately for many of us here they are in Italian but just seeing how it's done is a big help.

Good luck making the wire harness swap.

Tim


Last edited by Cosmic_Jumper on Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:52 pm

The ABS light stays on until you reach a speed of about six MPH. I believe both wheels need to achieve that speed. I believe that it compares both wheel speed as part of the ABS system test. Good luck on rebuilding your 2002 Swing. Remember that your stickers on the 2002 will not indicate ABS. You are going to have to swap the wheels. Easier than drilling mounting holes for the ABS pulse ring. You sure that it would not be easier to repair the 2005? 57,000 miles is not much for the Swing. How much did you spend for the 2005 Swing?
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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:32 am

I paid around $900 (735 Euros); 680 Euro for the bike and 150 Euros for the transport.
The bike is not in a very good condition. It would need service to the front suspensions; the oil in the fork is all leaked out.
There are also some oil leaks under the oil drain bolt and almost all the fairings have broken clips and scratches.
The 2002 had been serviced last year. I changed the front suspension's gaskets and oil, some gaskets on the engine to stop that oil leak that I mentioned the 2005 has and the handlebar bearings.
Another reason why I wouldn't move to the 2005 is that I need to register the bike and the registration would cost another 200 Euros.
If all goes well, I should be able to get about 650-700 for it after moving the ABS, and, in the end 50 or 100 Euros and 1 week of work for the swap, I think it will be worth it for the ABS.
I now need a service manual, or at least an electrical scheme to be able to continue the work.
Last night I took all the fairings away and solved the rear brake light issue. The last mechanic that worked on the bike switched the brake connections with the starter switch. Good thing that when I removed the handlebar fairings I accidentally pulled out the both the starting switch and the brake switch connectors. The front brake switch needs to be replaced.
And the pictures from last night:
Charging looks good

The spark plugs were pretty loose, maybe that's why they are pretty black on the top

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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:16 pm

I spent the whole day cleaning the calipers and the pistons and afterwards I managed to bleed only the front brake and that was pretty tricky too.
I need at least new gaskets for the calipers and it would be nice to change the pistons as well. I'll have a look at my 02, I hope the brakes are in better condition.
I also performed the ABS diagnostic test, but it doesn't look good. You can see the test here - https://youtu.be/j08xs9tuD-c
However, I don't think (or I don't want to believe) it's that bad; the bike hasn't been moved since I bought it and the calipers were not properly mounted on the bike. Another thing I should have done was to reset all the fault codes before the diagnostic.
Tomorrow I'll finish bleeding the rear brake, I hope I will be able to take a very short ride, then I'll start troubleshooting the ABS.
Have a great weekend!















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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:34 am

I managed to bleed the brakes yesterday. The pads are pretty worn, the pistons and gaskets are in bad shape, so I wasn't able to do a very good job, but just enough to be able to take it out for a ride.
Unfortunately the ABS light is still on. I'll continue the troubleshooting in the evening.
Yesterday I was stuck at this page:

It wasn't very clear for me if there needed to be continuity between the Brown&White and the Black wire at the connector or between Brown&White and the scooter's ground. Obviously there was continuity between Black and B&W and no continuity between B&W and ground.
After talking to a few friends it was clear that there need to be no continuity between B&W and ground.
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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:55 am

I'm still stuck with the measurements.
So, the manual says that I need to short the Brown and White wire and the Green wire, then to measure the continuity at the other end between the Brown and White and the scooter's ground and there should NOT be any continuity.
However, I can't understand how shouldn't be there any continuity if the green wire is actually a ground wire? What is supposed to break the continuity? There is no switch or anything else that could break the continuity, according to the electrical wiring diagram.
Am I missing something? Should I connect the 25p connector to the ABS module?
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:00 am

anothergxg wrote:
< SNIP > Should I connect the 25p connector to the ABS module?

Doesn't make sense to me either. But... My 2¢:

Perhaps with the connector plugged in to the ABS module, and the Service Check Connector shorted, the continuity when checked at the plug end (stick a pin down thru the weatherproof plug to contact the actual terminal) will have been somehow altered by whatever magic is going on in the ABS module.

Could it be that the SSC should be shorted momentarily, then B/W checked for continuity to ground? That would seem be a check for the ABS module.

I'll have to check my FSM later today and see if I can make sense of it from this end.

Tim
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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:10 am

I ran the self-diagnostic and I do have a lot of errors, including faulty ABS modulator, but I still want to go through all the troubleshooting steps, maybe I'll sort it out.
I spent the whole day studying the wiring diagram, the only possibility I see is that the connector should be plugged to the ABS module during measurement. However, it's strange that the shop manual does not mention to plug back the connector, since in the previous step they say that the connector needs to be unplugged...
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:27 pm

anothergxg wrote:
I ran the self-diagnostic and I do have a lot of errors, including faulty ABS modulator, but I still want to go through all the troubleshooting steps, maybe I'll sort it out.
I spent the whole day studying the wiring diagram, the only possibility I see is that the connector should be plugged to the ABS module during measurement. However, it's strange that the shop manual does not mention to plug back the connector, since in the previous step they say that the connector needs to be unplugged...

All Your connector's should be plugged in correctly, I use a straightened paper clip to make the connections for the test. Honda manuals contain many Translation mistakes.
Lloyd 193.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:12 am

Interesting You Tube video about ABS module "rebuilding": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R_5WZUebDx8
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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:11 am

I just cleared something out. The measurement should be made with the connector unplugged from the unit and there's no translation issue.
The key is that there is a Logical Ground and a Motor Ground, and this is why there shouldn't be any continuity between the brown/white wire and the chassis. That's all I know so far, I'll keep digging.
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:16 pm

anothergxg wrote:
I just cleared something out. The measurement should be made with the connector unplugged from the unit and there's no translation issue.
The key is that there is a Logical Ground and a Motor Ground, and this is why there shouldn't be any continuity between the brown/white wire and the chassis. That's all I know so far, I'll keep digging.

Good man, well done on sorting that issue, I'm bit late to the party here, but unless the workshop manual says reconnect, then leave unplugged as the logical sequence will give incorrect results if not meticulously followed.
If instructions are not immediately obvious, then the thing to consider is, are you testing the unit or the loom, once that is resolved your course of action will be clearer
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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:40 pm

@The Bern - thanks for the tip. I still have a lot to learn about electrics, electronics and mechanics.

Today I bought a new toy and I put the ABS transplant on hold. It's an electrical impact wrench.
Until tonight I was very sure that my clutch needed to be replaced, because when it was very hot, the power was very poor (sorry, I don't know if in English this is called slippery clutch like in Romanian). The idea is that after climbing a 30 km pretty stiff hill at about 30-40 km/h, it reved over 4000 rpm to get the scooter moving. The belt was replaced in service last year and it doesn't have more than 5000 km.
Now I discovered that the clutch shoes are in good shape, way over the 1mm service limit. Actually they are about 3-4mm.
Another strange thing is the belt's wear on my 2002. As I said, it was replaced last year. However, on the outside it has around 27mm and on the inside about 20mm. I suppose this is the reason for the power loss when it's hot.
And some pictures of the transmision components
I'm posting from my phone, so it's pretty hard to add a description. I'll edit the post tomorrow from the PC.













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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:39 pm

Hi bud, I think your drivebelt will be in tolerance, the measuring method is not done by measuring the belt at it's widest point, you need to project the angle upwards & measure the with at the top of the belt, I made a small guage from clear plastic ....



This is held against the belt & the measurement can then be made across the top of the belt ....



The red line on the guage is at 28mm width to give a quick visual guide to belt wear
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The Bern
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PostSubject: ABS Transplant II   Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:46 pm

Your clutch bell looks to have overheated from clutch slip, could your brakes be 'dragging' needing extra power to get up the long hill. When my parking brake was not fully releasing it took extra power to get along even on flat roads.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:52 pm

The clutch bell in the 2nd photo is not burnt like that in the first photo. You could exchange those clutch bells. The preferred way would be to remove the clutch bell with the proper factory tool or a long-arm gear puller. If that doesn't prove practical then you could swap the assemblies by removing the final drive (transmission) cover, clutch bell and final driveshaft as one unit. Of course you'll need to drain the final drive oil first. Seven bolts. The "hidden" bolts can be reached via the holes in the clutch bell.

Tim
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:23 pm

Brake system was not serviced. Rusted pistons and stuck parts are not good.
What ABS codes do you have? ABS module has valves inside that can stick just like calipers. Maybe rebuildable I don't know. Likely to find same problems inside there as calipers.

Honda service manuals are written more for Service Techs that already have training and a good working knowledge of electrical systems. Probing pins on harness it must be disconnected from unit you are checking if the wires are good from A to B ...... ANY kind of fault in ABS unit will give a code.

Repair all brake switch problems first and try to clear codes and see what returns.







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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:58 am

@Mech 1 twa, the brakes don't seem to have been serviced, indeed. The fault codes on the self-diagnostic are 12, 13, 14, 21, 31, 51, 61 and 81. I cleared them twice so far, but they still appear.
This being said, I removed the ABS modulator from the bike last night, I am currently looking for someone to try to open and service it.
There are indeed some brake switch problems. The front brake switch is missing, the rear brake switch was connected to the limit switch.
The wheel sensors are ok, I just need to clean them and adjust their position.
And some pictures of my ABS Modulator:





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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:56 pm

Today I opened the abs modulator. Too bad I don't have the knowledge and the tools to attempt a repair.
I noticed something very interesting. If anyone reading this has a 2004-2008 Honda car, please give me a sign.
I'll get back with the pics tomorrow.
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:10 pm

WOW that's a lot of codes. There are 2 fuses in under seat box 30 and 10 amp. Check for power and fuse condition first. ABS fail safe 30 amp 10 ABS main . If ABS light is on then most likely not the cause. 12-13 -14 are open broken wires to speed sensors. 31-51-81 are ABS modulator failure codes. 61 voltage to low to ABS module weak battery.

Fully charge the battery and reset system and see what codes return. You need a place to start with diag. If 31-51-81 return most likely ABS unit is bad.

What type of Honda car ABS unit are you looking for? Civic maybe ?

Modulator is really not a service part. Block part. Motor, circuit area maybe.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:24 pm

There are a couple of interesting You Tube videos about "repairing" ABS Modules. Unfortunately none that I found were applicable to Nissin Modules. But the gist of the repairs I saw were related to weak solder joints on the circuit board at the 12 volt connection from the main wire harness connection and weak solder connections on that same board at the relay(s) connections.
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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:57 am

Error codes 31 and 81 bug me the most. I checked the wiring, except for an open circuit to the ground (second measurement on page 17-8 in the service manual), all other measurements were fine.
Regarding the car abs module, this type of modulator is also used on cars. The only difference is that the one for the SW has 3 break lines and 6 solenoids, while the other one has 4 lines and 8 solenoids.
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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:34 am

Here are the pics from last night:




and this made me think that a car ABS modulator could fit:

this is the Acord ABS modulator:
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:44 am

Hmmm, only guessing here & could be completely wrong but I'm not sure the Accord unit would work, it has an extra tapping on the block, which will mean extra internal drillings, so it may not be as simple as just plugging what is visible.
That & I doubt that the electronic control would work correctly with only three of the four tappings being used,also would the modulation rate be the same for a four wheeled vehicle as for a two wheeled one.
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:20 am

This seems to be the most informative You Tube video which deals with an ABS Module. I hope this helps: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R_5WZUebDx8

And a 2nd helpful video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mtYCEpOXJRw


Last edited by Cosmic_Jumper on Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:30 am

I found an electronics guru, if he can't do it, it can't be done Smile
In the mean time, tonight I'll prepare my '02 for Road Inspection. I need to put back the transmission and switch to the classic halogen headlight.
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:47 am

George, I added another YouTube video link to my earlier post.

Glad that you found an electronics guru to help you. I hope that he will share the actual problem with you so that you can pass that information along here.

We all benefit from shared information.

Tim
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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:33 am

Thanks for the links, Tim.
Of course, I'll keep you guys posted.
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Tn Traveler
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:54 am

anothergxg:
I'm amazed at your accomplishments. GREAT info you are sharing.
Much more than I would attempt. I can rebuild a 200hp outboard
motor but electrical problems are not easy. I figured how to solve a
forward shifting when it should be in reverse. One week of thinking
and a week if fitting BUT it worked. It's amazing how fast you have
received answers.  I think that's the best part of this forum. I have
a 2006 abs Swing that I do most of the repairs. GOOD luck and keep
on asking.
JOE
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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:22 am

My knowledge is very limited, but I have some skilled friends and this forum.
Maybe not knowing that what I'm attempting is impossible is the key Smile
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:21 pm

[quote="anothergxg"]Error codes 31 and 81 bug me the most. I checked the wiring, except for an open circuit to the ground (second measurement on page 17-8 in the service manual), all other measurements were fine.
Regarding the car abs module, this type of modulator is also used on cars. The only difference is that the one for the SW has 3 break lines and 6 solenoids, while the other one has 4 lines and 8 solenoids.[/quote

Check the ground. You have to follow the manual first to find cause. That ground bolt shares many more circuits. Looks like 2 wires from ABS go to ground. Its going to be the main harness ground to the frame. I don't know where it is. Shows 4 wires to an eyelet. Test from connector to eyelet.

I doubt car ABS unit will work 4 channel system 1 for each wheel.. Internal circuits will be different. SW has 3 most likely due to linked brake system.
But I'm guessing not sure about 3rd channel.
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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:47 pm

There are 3 pairs of solenoids, I posted the pictures of the SW modulator after opening it. I am still waiting for the electronics guru to have a look at my module, maybe re-soldering some circuits will make it work.
While I was preparing the '02 for the road inspection I have tomorrow, I noticed that the frame does not have the mounts for ABS modulator.
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:39 pm

anothergxg wrote:
< SNIP > While I was preparing the '02 for the road inspection I have tomorrow, I noticed that the frame does not have the mounts for ABS modulator.

Shocked Well that sucks!

scratch Hmm... Well if you are going to fabricate and weld modulator mounting tabs on your '02 frame, you maybe want to first remove the ECU board, the ABS board and the Combination Meter from the S/Wing to insure that they aren't damaged by a voltage surge or EMF radiation.

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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:49 pm

Good advice Tig or Mig welding will fry things. Just static electricity can damage circuit boards.
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:25 pm

Nice thread!
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anothergxg
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:35 am

Long time no post. I waited a long time for some guy to help me re-solder the ABS unit, but eventually he didn't show up.
This being said, I started assembling the scooter back.
Basically, I give up on this project, but I learned some stuff about the Silverwing's braking system Smile
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Transplant and restoration.   Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:02 am

Thanks for following up on your topic. Sorry the project didn't work out for you.

Tim
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ABS Transplant and restoration.
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