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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:04 pm

gavinfdavies wrote:
I think you're a lucky man John to have found a bike that perfectly fits your needs, but not all of us are so lucky. I've had a dozen or so, but in each case, there's always one or two things about each one that isn't quite perfect for me. I find the Swing hard to get on/off the centre stand (almost sorted now with a mod to the stand geometry and some 20mm longer shocks), lack of front grip in the wet (tyre choice by the dealer, will change type next time), and I'd like a bit more rush when accelerating two up (have order Dr Pulleys). My little GPX250 from the 90s meets all those criteria, but lacks storage (only enough for a wallet!) and weather protection! Smile

As for you general statement, I don't agree I'm afraid. I think is based on two assumptions, neither of which is always true:
1) That what was best xx years ago is still the best idea now, and
2) That there is another bike in existence that meets one's requirements.

Firstly, if what was best back then always remained the best, we'd still be riding horses not lovely big scooters . Or living in caves eating mammoths  elephant  

The second point is a bit self explanatory. For example, name another bike that has all the existing qualities of a Silverwing 600, but has some improved characteristic. In this case greater acceleration and maybe slightly reduced cruising rpm. Well, the Aprilia 850 scooter does that, but it's heavier, thirstier, and rare as hen's teeth. The recent 700/750 twins from Honda manage this and are lighter and more economical, but aren't scooters. The BMW 650 scooter are faster, but lack weather protection, luggage space, and they're a pig to service, and BMW was silly money to do it for you (£750-800 for a 12,000 belt change, and £1,500 for a 24,000 belt change any one?!  affraid ). Hence people choose Dr Pulley, or a exhaust/filter/Power-Commander combo.

When a better bike exists for an individuals criteria, some one usually got it instead... you don't see many people dressing up a GSX-R1000 to look like a ZX10R, because they just got he ZX10R instead.

P.S. 400,000 miles? You must have an arse like a baboon! Smile

Placing your Silver wing on the center stand . is easy if you will cut a piece of schedule 40 PVC 1 and a Quarter inch diameter tubing about 12 to 18 inches long.

Slip this over the foot piece on the center stand, Then push down on the end of the tubing.

After you have used this a few times, You can decide if you would like to shorten the tube.

Some of the guys attach a string to their tube so that they do not have to bend over to install or remove the tube.

If you wish to take your tube along, It will fit under your seat.

Happy motoring Lloyd 193.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:20 pm

gavinfdavies wrote:
< >I find the Swing hard to get on/off the centre stand (almost sorted now with a mod to the stand geometry and some 20mm longer shocks) < >

A mod to the center stand? Please tell us more.

Tim
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:00 am

Mod to center-stand not necessary---just learn how to do it.....left hand on left handlebar, foot ready to jump in action, roll bike forward and quickly back, step on stand with right foot when bike is still in motion, right hand on passenger handle=easy, let the motion of bike do the heavy lifting.

Those that have trouble probably do not have long time motorcycle experience.
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:26 am

john grinsel wrote:
Mod to center-stand not necessary---just learn how to do it.....left hand on left handlebar, foot ready to jump in action, roll bike forward and quickly back, step on stand  with right foot when bike is still in motion, right hand on passenger handle=easy, let the motion of bike do the heavy lifting.

Those that have trouble probably do not have long time motorcycle experience.

John,
You don't have to have long time motorcycle experience to put the Swing on the center stand. I read several posts then went to the bike and got it done.

What most riders are doing wrong is trying to lift the bike onto the center stand. For those that don't know how to do it --- with the park brake released, hold on to the left handle bar, and grab the passenger handle with your right hand while pressing down firmly on the arm of the center stand in one swift motion. The bike will roll backward and up on to the center stand. I am only 140lbs and have no problem.

As for making mods to our Swing. We all make mods. Be it the top box, or wind shield, or side deflectors. Some items are offered by the dealers and others we diy.
What we ride now has gone through many changes. A lot of the changes were requested by riders like us. The manufacturer added features like ABS, O2 sensors, disc brakes and more.

It is a big part of my personality to add mods to most everything I get into. I feel that it challenges me and I enjoy the challenge.

I have added my personal touches to my fishing boat, all my cars, my Swing, and my drone. It is just me and I enjoy the challenge. No regrets. Never broke down due to any of my mods.

I guess I enjoy more than just the ride on my Swing. To each it's own!

Ride safe everyone.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Centerstand   Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:46 am

Mr Grinsel, Having put 97,000 miles on my first Silverwing, and several thousand more miles on my second Silverwing, I feel that I know what to / how to put my Silverwing on the centerstand.

The fact is that some Silverwings are more difficult to get up on the centerstand than others. My '09 is significantly more difficult than my '03 was --even though I transferred all the farkles from the '03 to the '09.

Yes, longer shocks and/or darkside tires will make it easier to raise the scoot as will carrying a leverage bar. But those don't address the actual problem.

I've inspected my centerstand and found nothing amiss. So if someone has a mod which eases getting the scoot up on the centerstand I'd appreciate more specific information about that mod. Perhaps the mod will suggest an explaination of why some Silverwings are more difficult to raise than others.

Tim

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cotetoi
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:40 am

Okay, guys, I think I may have an answer to your woes.
First off, on my 2005 , I had a 2" square piece of 1/4" steel welded to the foot support that you stand on to push. That helped an awful lot. Makes it easier on the ball of your right foot.
With my 2007 I have forgone that mod. I re-examined my technique very closely. I found that I had the tendency to grab the rear brakes when I held the left hand grip. I was not always aware of doing that ! Of course what that does is that it also activates the front brakes partially.
Now, if your front tire is not free to roll, you will NEVER get that bike on the centrestand, short of lifting it straight up !! and do your yourself untold damage in trying. I think this where some people are failing. Pay attention to your left hand. Are you holding the brake lever ?
It's ok to hold the rear brakes, but you have let go as soon as you START to put pressure on the footrest of the centrestand. The magic happens then. Of course you have to be sure both feet of the centrestand are touching the ground, and the ground is level !
I hope this helps.
Jay.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:06 am

It could be > possibly < the reason I found my GL 1500 easier to get on the center stand is once you get the 1500 MASS moving backwards is has more momentum to help get it up, or it may be me old butt isn't what it used to be Smile
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:22 pm

Cotetoi found one of the secrets----Keep left hand off the brake lever!! AND make sure parking brake is off!! Alittle motion to the rear, right timed step and up she goes!! All the time remembering---the SilverWing is a heavy beast.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:43 am

I'd have thought if you had difficulty lifting the Silver Wing (or any other motorcycle or maxi scooter for that matter) onto it's centre stand, you shouldn't have bought it. Because it's going to weigh a lot more once you've put the usual junk under the seat, fitted a top box, and panniers/saddle bags etc.

Like most other things this forum it's a topic that's been covered before, and there's already quite a number of posts from members explaining how they do it. In a way it's similar to the topics explaining how to start a Silver Wing to clueless new owners.

I'll also go on the record by saying that difficulty hauling the Silver Wing on and off it's centre stand is the real reason why some owners disable the side stand cut out switch whatever other reason or excuse they give. Allowing the scooter to be started on the side stand does away with using the centre stand altogether in daily use.
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:45 am

Meldrew wrote:
 Allowing the scooter to be started on the side stand does away with using the centre stand altogether in daily use.

Exactly. Though I find it easy to place my Swing on the center stand, I prefer to use the side stand. Just a lot easier. And yes, I have the switch bypassed. I run the engine while I put on my riding gear. We all make choices as to how much risk we are willing to take, and I feel that the risk "for me" is minimal. None of my past bikes had the switch. I do do a spot check before leaving.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:31 am

Daily use sidestand works/worked for me----but parking bike in garage/working on it/washing on center stand/loading for trip, too.

In the 70's, in Japan, running motorcycle courses/schools----when I opened class, first thing I did was ask students to push their bikes backwards thru a set of cones, while not on seat----those who had ridden a lot/worked in bike shops had no trouble....but Mr. Bigmouth who talked about his experience, etc---usually dropped bike, ending up on top of it. Really worked, getting their attention.




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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:25 am

There is one thing missed about using the center stand vs the side stand, stability, the three point stance of the side stand being more stable. I found out the hard way once, I had put the bike cover over mine while at work one day and a pretty strong storm came up, the cover acted like a sail and over it went. Other bikes on side stands were covered but remained upright. After that it was covered while on the side stand. To each his own but the only time I use the center stand is for servicing.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:40 am

That three points of contact works the other way too, many bikes especially sports bikes have spring loaded side stands. So if a gust of wind, or rough weather on a ferry crossing is enough to move the bike upright, the stand retracts and over it goes, even when it's tied down. I've heard of this happening to bikes tied up on the car decks of ferries where it's caused a dominoes effect.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:03 am

I can see that happening, time for tie down straps in rough weather crossings.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:12 am

Ratchet tie down straps or ropes are supplied for motorcycle and used on all ferry crossings.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:14 am

So they forgot to or didn't bother to tie down?
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:41 am

IIRC the Lake Michigan ferry does not supply tie downs. We took the ~6 hour midnight ferry from Wisconsin to Michigan one August night along with some HD riders returning from Sturgis. They complained about needing to makeshift ways to secure their bikes in the hold.

We set out the lounge chairs on the front deck that night and watched the Persied meteor showers overhead. A very Carl Sagan experience. Billions and billions...

Tim
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Modernman1953
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:08 pm

Want to make putting the bike on the center stand?  Take a small piece of 3/4 inch plywood and ride your rear wheel onto it.  The other suggestions of pushing down on the center stand foot peg as you are lifting on the passenger hand rail.  

Putting a Goldwing on the center stand (950 lbs.) is a little tough, but I can get that done without the plywood.  

Side stand switch modification mentioned.  You do what you want to your bike, as it is your own ride, as the saying goes, "Ride your own ride."  

That mod could be death to the next owner.  Please undo your mod before you sell it.  You don't have the right to risk other people's lives.  The next buyer might be forgetful, LIKE I AM.  

I have been riding for 45 years and I wouldn't ever do that mod on any of my bikes.  Often times, I shut my bike off with it.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:55 pm

Whenever I sell a bike I remove any modifications I've done on them if there's any chance whatsoever that could get a lawyer on my butt. Car tires and side stand modifications are good ones not to pass on to another buyer because if you have any modification a lawyer can claim contributed to an accident it's going to be expensive to try to prove it didn't have anything to do with an accident.
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Modernman1953
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:17 am

No deaths have ever been contributed to a bike owner being inconvenienced by the federally mandated side stand safety switch; however, there are several incidences where a rider left their side stand down and made a left turn, which lifts the rear tire off of the pavement, which in some incidences, causes accidents, some fatal.

The problem with these modification is that SOME of these modifications remain for the life of the scooter.

There are some folks who are thinking, "dang I forgot to undo my work around" before you sold it. You know who you are. I know, I just bought a Honda Helix that had the side stand bypassed.

Ride your own ride.



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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:17 pm

Of course in the US one is liable for a big lawsuit over a modification that was done by a previous owner if a subsequent owner is injured or harmed financially. It costs little to sue in court compared to how much it costs to defend yourself for a frivolous lawsuit in this country. We have no 'loser pays' law to protect one from being sued as most civilized countries do.
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gavinfdavies
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:34 pm

The issue I have with the centre stand is primarily due to the 2" of suspension sag solely from the bike's own mass, plus the approx. 15-20mm clearance under the wheel once it's up, and that's closer to 25mm at the tip over point. So basically by either rolling the bike back onto the stand, or by lifting up on hand rail and pressing down on stand, I've got to lift the bike 3" to get over the hump. That's a fair bit of momentum required, and I have limited space in my garage (what with 5 other bikes, racking, benches, arm chairs, old TVs etc). That mean once the front wheel has been reversed over the door lip, I've only got about 6" of room to play with before blocking my entry/exit route between the bikes and the side door. So doing the stand thing via momentum isn't ideal.

Also, both methods are unnecessarily hard. It doesn't make you more of a man to struggle or fight physics & geometry. As the old military adage goes "any fool can be cold, wet, and uncomfortable". And as for the side stand cut-out bypass.... that's an accident waiting to happen. I'd feel like too much of a prat if it went wrong. I've done it before on a sportsbike, but only because the damned switch fell off not long after I bought it from a 'friend' (who it later transpired had fitted a 'new' engine with the numbers chiselled off, twunt) which made it cut out mid corner! Had to splice the wires together at the roadside and order a replacement when I got home.

Any way, so having chatted with Hagon, I've picked up a set of their shocks (22 hours from telephone order to them landing in my porch!), which I think I should be able to modify to add 20mm of rear ride height. This will help sort out the floppy steering, make things more nimble, and also ease ground handling, since I won't have to lift it so far, and hence the centre-stand will be closer to vertical when it does take the weight. This will improve the lever action and reduce effort.

The mod to the stand itself is simple - restrict how far it can rock over top dead centre, and hence reduce the lift when taking it off the stand when using momentum isn't an option.

These were tested by sticking some adhesive wheel weights over the stand stops to restrict travel, and one up placing 20mm of ply under the rear wheel. This made the Swing almost as easy, if not easier, to get on/off the stand as my little 125cc commuter scooter.

Following this, I ordered the afore-mentioned Hagons, and then made some more secure stand restrictors. These take the form of some 3mm thick aerospace stainless steel strip 20mm wide and 100 mm long, which was (eventually) bent in half with a 5-6mm gap. This involved heating to cherry red before applying a lot of brute force. That stuff is tough! I then drilled a 5.5mm hole through near the open end, then drilled out one side to 6mm. The 5.5mm side was then tapped M6 (yes, I know, it should have been 5mm tapping drill size, but this stuff is tough and I value my taps!). The clip then slides over the stand and a small button head bolt through it clamps it in place.

Unfortunately the bend was very hard to get near square, hence the clip is a little thicker than the test pieces (wheel weights, the flat ferrous kind) and hence the stand sits a little too close to the balance point for my liking, so I'd have to avoid even a slight forward slope. I'll probably have a go at making some with thinner steel if I can find any at work. Ahem, I mean the shops... The downside being I'd need to add a nut as 2mm wouldn't be enough for much of a thread. I might also make up a set of dies to form the bends using a 10t press instead of a blow torch and brute force! Could also knock out a few pairs.

Other option would be to just use the stick on weights, since it doesn't matter if they do fall off, and they can easily be replaced.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:54 am

Gavin, I'm a bit thick-headed. Is the purpose of the (wheel weights) spacers to stop the center stand from pivoting fully forward (when deployed the stand is stopped at greater than 90°) when raising the bike? It seems to me that even if the stand were limited to ~90° when fully deployed you'd still have to bear the brunt of raising the scooter's weight & mass iduring initial deployment. And if the center stand was limited to a vertical position wouldn't that leave the scoot less secure...from toppling or rolling forward? 

Any photos?

Tim
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:36 am

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:
Gavin, I'm a bit thick-headed. Is the purpose of the (wheel weights) spacers to stop the center stand from pivoting fully forward (when deployed the stand is stopped at greater than 90°) when raising the bike? It seems to me that even if the stand were limited to ~90° when fully deployed you'd still have to bear the brunt of raising the scooter's weight & mass iduring initial deployment. And if the center stand was limited to a vertical position wouldn't that leave the scoot less secure...from toppling or rolling forward? 

Any photos?

Tim

Many people will go to great length's to defeat the hundreds of hours the engineers spent designing and building the best method of unloading the suspension, Preventing fall over and making servicing easy on the Silverwing. Some of us will never be able to understand some of these modifications.
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gavinfdavies
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:58 pm

Yes, because no bike in history has ever been able to be improved or adjusted to suit the end user needs more effectively. That's why all new bikes now are exactly the same as they were 100 years ago. Or even 50. Oh no, wait, bikes do keep being improved, adapted, and adjusted. Woah. In fact, even the 'perfect' Silverwing was once the new fangled thing compared to the existing Honda scooters at the turn of the millennium. Honda Helix any one?

Sorry, I just find the whole 'never change ANYTHING' attitude really irritating. Especially when you look at the world around you and see that everything is being improved all the time (mostly, except where accountants get involved!). Hands up who's still using the same PC they were using in 2001 for example?


Any way, yes, back to the pertinent question from Cosmic...

Yes, you're bob on. The idea of the shims, be they wheel weights or actual little brackets etc is to stop the stand going much past 90degs. Mine now rests at about 95-100, whereas before it was (say) 110ish?

On it's own this isn't much help, apart from making it a little easier to pull off the stand forward. Yes, it could roll, but on mine at least I was previously having to use most of my body weight to pull it forwards off the stand, now it take just most of one arm's strength. Hardly technical but you get the gist, it's still as secure as most other bikes I've used. I still need to do a little fine tuning, but it's a big improvement already for me.

Now, just adding the shims would only help when pulling it off the stand, except that I'm also extending the rear suspension 20mm too. So now think of the motion of the rear wheel relative to the ground. Instead of the wheel rising up (say) 30mm, the stand rocking over and the wheel coming to rest back at (say) 20mm, the wheel will be lifted up about 10mm, rock over, and come to rest about 5mm off the floor. This makes it both easier to get on and off the stand. It should also decrease the trail on the steering, and reduce the tendency for the steering to flop over near full lock when (say) manoeuvring at slow speeds.

I could have just shortened the centre stand, I wanted to avoid butchering any original parts, and that also wouldn't have helped the steering.
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gavinfdavies
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:42 am

Hagon shocks arrived, and have now been modded (in a fully reversible way & with the blessings of the manufacturer) to extend them by some 22.5mm, which gives around 18-20mm additional ride height. They've now been fitted to the bike, and I'm just waiting for the Loctite to go off before riding on them.

Interestingly it's actually possible to remove the top bolts and extract the shocks without removing panels or drilling holes in the luggage compartment. A long 12mm ring spanner with a 1" offset to crack them off, then they can be twiddled out with your finger tips.... so long as you don't have bear hands! Then replace with some Loctite and nip back up.
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:45 pm

How far does it now lean on the sidestand Gavin?
I fitted standard length hagons and find the bike leans much further, in fact I can put a 20mm block under the s\stand and it still leans further than some bikes.
I fitted mine the proper way be dismantling the majority of the back of the bike, and if I had to do it again .... the drill would come out lol.
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gavinfdavies
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PostSubject: Re: Centerstand   Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:58 pm

On the kick stand, it leans ALOT, yet not too far. I tried pulling a bit further, and actually pulled the front wheel off the floor (so balancing on kick stand and rear wheel) and it STILL didn't reach the tipping point!

It's a lot easier getting on and off the stand, remarkably so. I can get her on the centre stand by just standing on the lever. Most of the weight comes off my other foot, and I weight about 14ish stone. 14 lbs to the stone for you Yanks, I'll let you do the maths if you want. Getting her off the stand can be done with arm strength only. Ideal. This puts it on par with my 125cc scooter. If I'm feeling paranoid, I can leave the kick stand down, bars full left lock, and handbrake on. Testing shows that if pushed off the stand centrally (as opposed from being pulled off-centre by the left grab rail) the bike will rock forwards and drop onto the kick stand. But I don't think I need to worry (hopefully).

Now, handling...... EPIC. She handles now more like a heavy motorcycle, rather than a wide Hardly-Movingson. At walking pace while manoeuvring as one approaches full lock one can still feel the force through the bars change from needing to pull to needing to push, but the change is very gentle, and not out of place against usual steering forces. On mine before, it would suddenly flop over onto full lock rapidly, and the required force to arrest this was much higher than the usual steering forces. It is now more predictable and balanced. At normal road speeds it is VERY stable when cornering, and I was able to put a fair bit of lean on in the roundabouts with good levels of confidence. I won't be needing knee-sliders any time soon, but I can haul her about like a regular heavy motorcycle. For me it feels closer to something like the classic GPZ900R Ninja that the 1200 sportster it felt like before.

Oh, and seat height isn't bad: I find 29" trouser legs still a bit too long, et I can get my feet flat without issue.

Really pleased and I think it a very worthwhile modification, and I'll be reporting back to Hagon likewise.


And to those people who like to make comments along the lines of 'you're just undoing hundreds of hours of Honda designers work' etc..... I'll point out that I've seen you elsewhere espousing the benefits of fitting the Givi Airflow screen. Pot. Kettle. Black.
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