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 Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose

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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:22 pm

Noticed today, for second time in recent weeks, rear axle nut had become loose...may have also caused ABS Light to stay on earlier....as wheel wobbled.

Cause? Bearing on swing arm wearing out or spline wear? Dealer or me wrong torqued/tightened nut? Nut needs/or should be replaced? Looks to me designed to be self locking.

As I just sold house, am living in motel, am away from my usual tools....but carry 27mm socket and breaker bar, tightened nut. And will watch---today felt something funny as I slowly crossed speed bump in parking lot.

In over 90,000 SilverWing miles on 2 new one---this problem is a first for me.

My fix---trade bike---today was bike/shopping looking for best deal on trading SilverWing, mine is 2013, in service since late 2014. Next bike for me hard---TU250....but 2 Suzuki dealers would not take my near 50,000 mile scooter in trade. So Honda CB300F=ok for me. Offered $3000 trade in by Honda Dealer, Dalton GA. Will ride scooter there, pay, and ride away either on Red non ABS or Yellow/Silver ABS....next week---than solve windshield problem, still take trip to James Bay before the snow flies on new bike that should not break.

Considered SR400(have invest too much money) or my third new Burgman 400, again not cheap

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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:05 pm

John

That 18mm (27mm od) nut is common to dozens and dozens of other Hondas. It's possible that a local dealer has a new one on the shelf for you.

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/honda/HP-90305-MB4-003.html

Tim
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:12 am

John,
Maybe when you changed the tire you lost/forgot to reinstall the axle collar on the outside of the swing arm, under the axle nut. My 2004 Swing I just purchased had a bad wobble that the disc rotor wore into the swing arm, rear brake rotor, and parking brake rotor. As Lloyd pointed it out to me that the wobble is caused because of the missing collar under the nut. The axle nut cannot be torqued correctly without the collar. I would not sell my bike knowing that I was having that reoccurring problem. I just received the nut, under nut collar, and the inside axle collar. I will be repairing my bike when I next return to Idaho.
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:39 am

Yep, nut is self locking when the flat is agaianst the collar, are you near a machine shop John ? If so same offer as I made Easyrider, I'll take my collar off measure it & post dimensions in this thread for you bud
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cliffyk
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:47 am

Prevailing torque "Self-locking" nuts (upset metal or nylon insert) are classified by DIN (Deutsches Institut für Normung) as "loss prevention devices", i.e. they prevent nuts from detaching from the male fastener, which is a good thing as they can and often do prevent really nasty failures. However they are not intended to, nor even capable of, retaining proper clamping force ("torque") of the fastener¹; which is much more a function of proper material selection and design; and in the end proper assembly torque--which I believe gets us to the root of the OP's situation.

I suspect that at some point the axle nut was not properly torqued² and the nut loosened causing wear to the threaded end of the axle and axle nut, and perhaps even the axle/wheel splines. Such wear will exaggerate the relative rotational and transverse movement in the wheel/axle juncture, that will in turn overcome the nut's ability to remain tight if properly or even over- torqued

And now that it has loosened twice, and driven some distances while loose, re-torquing it could well prove to be pretty much a futile effort. A new nut would not hurt however it should be closely monitored for the remainder of the scoot's life; or until proven to have been successful.


In the last and squarely in the FWIW category of things; I could count on one hand the number of times in my last 50+ years of turning wrenches³ that I have seen a fastener I knew was properly torqued come loose.    

------------------------
¹ - That a prevailing torque "self-locking" nut cannot be expected to prevent a torqued fastener from loosening should be obvious as to do so it would have to in and of itself provide a higher resistive torque than that it was being expected to retain. I.e. in this specific instance the torque required just to run the nut down on the the axle's threaded end (and inversely prevent its loosening) would have to be greater than or at least equal to 102 lb·ft in order that there would be any possibility of its being able to retain that torque.

² - Torque wrenches used by consumer vehicle mechanics (pro and shade-tree) are rarely if ever checked and if needed calibrated; and beyond that there are too many "I don't need no stinking torque wrench" sorts out there that rely simply on making fasteners "Guttentight" with a blatant disregard for proper assembly methods. If they do own a torque wrench they have one, generally a beat up 1/2" drive, that rattles around in their tool chest when not being used.

Motorcycle mechanics seem especially egregious in this regard, with crankshaft pulleys on automobiles coming in a close second.

³ - I am excluding the decade between my being 10 and 20.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:22 am

My fix=bike is being traded in next week. limited riding between now and then, check now and then, remind dealer nut should be replaced.

Rear wheel is on the right way---checked it by the book, this is third time nut as come loose over period of 10,000 miles.

Hope this is last thing that goes wrong. Two SilverWings and over 90,000 miles---they have been pretty trouble free-----but the buffeting going down the road is horrible regardless of windshield system.
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cliffyk
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:56 am

john grinsel wrote:
My fix=bike is being traded in next week.  limited riding between now and then, check now and then, remind dealer nut should be replaced.

Rear wheel is on the right way---checked it by the book, this is third time nut as come loose over period of 10,000 miles.

Hope this is last thing that goes wrong.  Two SilverWings and over 90,000 miles---they have been pretty trouble free-----but the buffeting going down the road is horrible regardless of windshield system.

As the axle nut loosening is not a widely (arguably rarely) reported problem I suspect your was at some point improperly torqued, and as I stated above once ridden more then a few miles in that state the damage was done. That is has been tightened and has loosened twice since then illustrates the progression of the damage--to an extent I doubt a new nut will resolve.

My '06 came to me with one of those absurdly tall Givi screens that annoyed the crap out of me; I cut nearly 7 inches off the top to get it just below eye level:



No helmet law here if Florida, it was repealed in 2000 and I have not worn one since then, even as such I do not find the buffeting to be all that worse than any other bike I've owed--which were mostly "big iron" including a number of Harleys and a Kawasaki Vulcan 1500 until I had a stroke in early 2011.

Then again I no longer routinely ride long distances other than that we live 12 miles from "town" (Saint Augustine), and I sometimes ride to Ocala to visit my father and brother (200 miles RT).
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:04 am

I would just like to say ....... Excellent post bud

cliffyk wrote:
Prevailing torque "Self-locking" nuts (upset metal or nylon insert) are classified by DIN (Deutsches Institut für Normung) as "loss prevention devices", i.e. they prevent nuts from detaching from the male fastener, which is a good thing as they can and often do prevent really nasty failures. However they are not intended to, nor even capable of, retaining proper clamping force ("torque") of the fastener¹; which is much more a function of proper material selection and design; and in the end proper assembly torque--which I believe gets us to the root of the OP's situation.

I suspect that at some point the axle nut was not properly torqued² and the nut loosened causing wear to the threaded end of the axle and axle nut, and perhaps even the axle/wheel splines. Such wear will exaggerate the relative rotational and transverse movement in the wheel/axle juncture, that will in turn overcome the nut's ability to remain tight if properly or even over- torqued

And now that it has loosened twice, and driven some distances while loose, re-torquing it could well prove to be pretty much a futile effort. A new nut would not hurt however it should be closely monitored for the remainder of the scoot's life; or until proven to have been successful.


In the last and squarely in the FWIW category of things; I could count on one hand the number of times in my last 50+ years of turning wrenches³ that I have seen a fastener I knew was properly torqued come loose.    

------------------------
¹ - That a prevailing torque "self-locking" nut cannot be expected to prevent a torqued fastener from loosening should be obvious as to do so it would have to in and of itself provide a higher resistive torque than that it was being expected to retain. I.e. in this specific instance the torque required just to run the nut down on the the axle's threaded end (and inversely prevent its loosening) would have to be greater than or at least equal to 102 lb·ft in order that there would be any possibility of its being able to retain that torque.

² - Torque wrenches used by consumer vehicle mechanics (pro and shade-tree) are rarely if ever checked and if needed calibrated; and beyond that there are too many "I don't need no stinking torque wrench" sorts out there that rely simply on making fasteners "Guttentight" with a blatant disregard for proper assembly methods. If they do own a torque wrench they have one, generally a beat up 1/2" drive, that rattles around in their tool chest when not being used.

Motorcycle mechanics seem especially egregious in this regard, with crankshaft pulleys on automobiles coming in a close second.

³ - I am excluding the decade between my being 10 and 20.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:22 am

I know in some applications,"self locking" aircraft nuts should not be reused---but Honda service manual does not cover this.

My case, next week, last week of use for this SilverWing, so will watch carefully, nut will not fall off.

Buffeting----if one has not ever had bike with true wind/buffeting control---one doesn't know the comfort of properly designed bike air management system---for me---BMW twin with Heinrich uppers/lowers/lap blanket, foot flaps and HD (my new '66 sidecar outfit) with tin legshields/Winter Windshield/solo seat/with side car wind does blow off left side of sidecar but does not buffet AND Vespa two stroke with right look over windshield=calm air going down the road.

Trading bikes for me works for me at 50,000 miles or less--just get tired of fixing/adjusting, exceptions---my BMW R51/3 went 120,000 miles (just never broke), My Kawasaki Concours left at 56,000 miles, and Suzuki GS500E done at 64,000 miles.
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:40 am

john grinsel wrote:
Buffeting----if one has not ever had bike with true wind/buffeting control---one doesn't know the comfort of properly designed bike air management system---for me---BMW twin with Heinrich uppers/lowers/lap blanket, foot flaps and HD (my new '66 sidecar outfit) with tin legshields/Winter  Windshield/solo seat/with side car wind does blow off left side of sidecar but does not buffet.

In the heady hardcore Harley days of my youth (I belonged to a civic organisation known as the Devil's Disciples) we referred to Goldwings and other such things as you describe as "two-wheeled Buicks" Smile
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cotetoi
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:42 am

I had my tires changed at the shop this week, and I am reading this post with a bit of trepidation. I trust the shop owner and he has been a Honda mechanic for years, but you never know about the quality of the help he hires. I looked up the rear tire change procedure. I did not have Honda Moly, so, I took the bike to the shop, not just the tires.
I will be keeping a close eye on that rear wheel.
What would the signs be that indicate a loose nut, before it starts a wheel wobble ? Is there any side to side play that can be checked by hand?
For my next tire change I am taking the wheels off myself. I bought the required Moly paste for greasing the axles.
Thanks,
Jay.
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:29 am

cotetoi wrote:
I had my tires changed at the shop this week, and I am reading this post with a bit of trepidation. I trust the shop owner and he has been a Honda mechanic for years, but you never know about the quality of the help he hires. I looked up the rear tire change procedure. I did not have Honda Moly, so, I took the bike to the shop, not just the tires.
I will be keeping a close eye on that rear wheel.
What would the signs be that indicate a loose nut, before it starts a wheel wobble ? Is there any side to side play that can be checked by hand?
For my next tire change I am taking the wheels off myself. I bought the required Moly paste for greasing the axles.
Thanks,
Jay.

A properly torqued and lubricated rear axle nut will not come loose, A loosely torqued Axle nut, Not providing the desired clamp load will over time work loose and in some cases damage the rear wheel to the point of it having to be stippled or replaced. I suggest you check the torque on your Axle nut for at least 102 foot pounds, I prefer torquing to 110 foot pounds.

Happy motoring Lloyd 193.


Last edited by lloyd193 on Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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cliffyk
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:06 pm

cotetoi wrote:

What would the signs be that indicate a loose nut, before it starts a wheel wobble ? Is there any side to side play that can be checked by hand?

By the time there would be any such indication the damage will have already been done--use a known accurate torque wrench to verify it's properly tightened and be done with it...
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Old Limey
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:02 pm

Whilst checking rear tyre pressure a couple of years ago, I noticed rear wheel was loose. Ever since I use thread locker on wheel nut and on any other nut I think could possibly work loose, it cannot do any harm and could save a lot of misery.
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:03 pm

cliffyk wrote:
cotetoi wrote:

What would the signs be that indicate a loose nut, before it starts a wheel wobble ? Is there any side to side play that can be checked by hand?

By the time there would be any such indication the damage will have already been done--use a known accurate torque wrench to verify it's properly tightened and be done with it...

Properly torquing the rear axle nut requires that a good back up be employed to prevent the wheel turning while torque is being applied. Using a dowel thru the wheel spokes is the proper way to reach the desired torque, A straight shovel handle works OK, Be sure that you do not damage your valve stem.

Applying thread locker to a properly lubricated shaft does nothing, Thread locker depends on a clean dry surface to work, Also heat causes thread locker to release its glueing effect.

Lubricate the shaft and nut friction surface with a good grease and tighten to the desired torque.

Happy motoring Lloyd 193.
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:45 pm

lloyd193 wrote:


A properly torqued and lubricated rear axle nut will not come loose, A loosely torqued Axle nut, Not providing the desired clamp load will over time work loose and in some cases damage the rear wheel to the point of it having to be stippled or replaced. I suggest you check the torque on your Axle nut for at least 102 foot pounds, I prefer torquing to 110 foot pounds.

Hmmmm, as hard as I try I cannot find any mention of lubricating the axle nut &/or thread in the official Honda WSM, oiling will result in over-torquing on it's own, then you like to add a further 10% ??

Can I just remind you of another of your posts (in another similar thread) .....

lloyd193 wrote:
Rear wheel nut Torque,  .... //....
Honda made no mistake in their service manual torque Specs,


Last edited by The Bern on Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarity (bracketed text))
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:26 pm

The Bern wrote:
lloyd193 wrote:


A properly torqued and lubricated rear axle nut will not come loose, A loosely torqued Axle nut, Not providing the desired clamp load will over time work loose and in some cases damage the rear wheel to the point of it having to be stippled or replaced. I suggest you check the torque on your Axle nut for at least 102 foot pounds, I prefer torquing to 110 foot pounds.

Hmmmm, as hard as I try I cannot find any mention of lubricating the axle nut &/or thread in the official Honda WSM, oiling will result in over-torquing on it's own, then you like to add a further 10% ??

I agree, the manual makes no mention of lubricating the axle or nut and in the absence of such guidance one must assume the intention was that it be "dry" threaded--nor is any threadlocker specified or IMHO needed--just properly tightening it.

"Properly torquing" does require Some sort of positive blocking of the wheel as lloyd suggested; this is yet another component of improper torquing I have observed numerous times over the years.

The good news is that the maximum torque for an M18 class 8.8 fastener (the axle and nut are certainly at least close to that) is 225 lb·ft--so there is little empirical danger of stripping it or causing it to fail...
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:42 pm

The Bern wrote:
lloyd193 wrote:


A properly torqued and lubricated rear axle nut will not come loose, A loosely torqued Axle nut, Not providing the desired clamp load will over time work loose and in some cases damage the rear wheel to the point of it having to be stippled or replaced. I suggest you check the torque on your Axle nut for at least 102 foot pounds, I prefer torquing to 110 foot pounds.

Hmmmm, as hard as I try I cannot find any mention of lubricating the axle nut &/or thread in the official Honda WSM, oiling will result in over-torquing on it's own, then you like to add a further 10% ??

Can I just remind you of another of your posts .....

lloyd193 wrote:
Rear wheel nut Torque,  .... //....
Honda made no mistake in their service manual torque Specs,


Again you have assumed another incorrect conclusion and misstatement, Lubrication is always desired on any metal to metal contact. Whether it is called for in each sentence in a service manual or not, The writer's of this manual take for granted some basic knowledge on the readers part.

It is not necessary that you remind me of any of my post, I have years and years experience maintaining, Riding and Modifications on Japanese scooters. My post come from experience, not something I read someplace,

My posts are to help the members on this sight, Not to criticize and find fault with their comments, You would do well to gain some experience before you criticize anyone posting here.
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:52 pm

The Bern wrote:

Can I just remind you of another of your posts (in another similar thread) .....

lloyd193 wrote:
Rear wheel nut Torque,  .... //....
Honda made no mistake in their service manual torque Specs,

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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:58 pm

The Bern wrote:
The Bern wrote:

Can I just remind you of another of your posts (in another similar thread) .....

lloyd193 wrote:
Rear wheel nut Torque,  .... //....
Honda made no mistake in their service manual torque Specs,


Once you have learned about friction, fasteners and clamp load, Get back to me from over yonder.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:06 pm

Something on this nut becoming loose----miles on my bike, near 50,000----were I to keep bike, I would replace bearing in swing arm and then nut----but I am trading bikes and not going to worry about it other than telling dealer that maybe new nut required.

I believe in following Honda service manual. My desire is not to have breakdowns/trouble on long trips...thus love new bikes with warranty!
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:12 pm

Lloyd, please don't try to belittle me with your attitude problems, I do my very best to reply to post made in the forums with the best possible technical details & general view to member safety.
Where there is a need to apply lubricant to threads &/or mating surfaces it is invariably detaialed in the manufacturers workshop manual. I always quote from that NOT from my personal opinion.

As a single example of Honda recognising the need for lubrication look at the section relevant to drive/driven pulley/clutch, note well .... Drive face bolt 76ftf-lb UBS bolt. Apply oil to the threads and seating face.

As I said before bud ..... wind yer neck in

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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:18 pm

The Bern wrote:
Lloyd, please don't try to belittle me with your attitude problems, I do my very best to reply to post made in the forums with the best possible technical details & general view to member safety.
Where there is a need to apply lubricant to threads &/or mating surfaces it is invariably detaialed in the manufacturers workshop manual. I always quote from that NOT from my personal opinion.

As a single example of Honda recognising the need for lubrication look at the section relevant to drive/driven pulley/clutch, note well .... Drive face bolt 76ftf-lb UBS bolt. Apply oil to the threads and seating face.

As I said before bud ..... wind yer neck in


You belittle yourself with your uninformed comments, You do not need any help from me, Now lay off.
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:26 pm

lloyd193 wrote:
The Bern wrote:
Lloyd, please don't try to belittle me with your attitude problems, I do my very best to reply to post made in the forums with the best possible technical details & general view to member safety.
Where there is a need to apply lubricant to threads &/or mating surfaces it is invariably detaialed in the manufacturers workshop manual. I always quote from that NOT from my personal opinion.

As a single example of Honda recognising the need for lubrication look at the section relevant to drive/driven pulley/clutch, note well .... Drive face bolt 76ftf-lb UBS bolt. Apply oil to the threads and seating face.

As I said before bud ..... wind yer neck in


You belittle yourself with your uninformed comments, You do not need any help from me, Now lay off.

Uninformed comments taken directly from Honda WSM, your ego is far more advanced than your reasoning
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:43 pm

I recall from reading Honda Tech stuff over the years, Honda preferred dry thread? I do sometimes add a bit of locking stuff on certain jobs.


What needs to be considered on my bike---the miles ridden and the fact ridden daily and subject to long trips, loaded, etc
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:05 pm

lloyd193 wrote:
Lubrication is always desired on any metal to metal contact.

As I am pretty sure the six years I spent at MIT were, even though quite a while back, not wasted years I have to disagree with this statement--at very least edit and add qualifications to it:

Lubrication is often desired on a̶n̶y̶ sliding or rotating metal to metal contact.

With that aside let's turn to published torque specifications for threaded fasteners, which are universally accepted to assume dry threads unless otherwise specified. Further in critical applications when lubricant is specified it is not unusual to have the exact composition, characteristics and even manufacturer/brand also specified--as those qualities all affect the attained loads.

The intended goal of most threaded fasteners is to provide a clamping force, often with a specified torque indicated so as to provide both that clamping force and control/prevent transverse movement (the greatest contributor to "self-loosening") of the fastener. Obviously introducing lubricant between the bolt/nut and clamped component is contrary to that goal.

This effect is at its worse when the material of the nut or bolt head and the clamped component are similar as the lubricant serves only to add a layer of dissimilar material into a juncture that would otherwise have a higher static friction coefficient--use of high or extreme pressure lubricant would exacerbate this.

The nut or bolt head's tendency to "bind up" rotationally against the clamped component is part and parcel of torque retention--to a far greater degree than any self-locking nut would provide. This is why flanged head bolts and flanged nuts are more resistant to self-loosening, the greater area of contact as compared to a hex-faced bolt or nut increases the fastener's rotational resistance.

I think "The Bern" stated things concisely, you need to read up on friction, fasteners, clamping loads, etc...

--------------------------
FWIW (and sort of on-topic) in refreshing my memory on this topic I ran across a white paper showing that the plain ol' spring lock washers we all grew up with somewhat counter-intuitively promote self-loosing. It seems that in addition to adding yet another set of contact surfaces subject to the effects of repeated transverse forces they also block the bolt/nut from "self-tightening" should relative combined forces be inclined to promote same.
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:27 pm

cliffyk wrote:
lloyd193 wrote:
Lubrication is always desired on any metal to metal contact.

As I am pretty sure the six years I spent at MIT were, even though quite a while back, not wasted years I have to disagree with this statement--at very least edit and add qualifications to it:

Lubrication is often desired on a̶n̶y̶ sliding or rotating metal to metal contact.

With that aside let's turn to published torque specifications for threaded fasteners, which are universally accepted to assume dry threads unless otherwise specified. Further in critical applications when lubricant is specified it is not unusual to have the exact composition, characteristics and even manufacturer/brand also specified--as those qualities all affect the attained loads.

The intended goal of most threaded fasteners is to provide a clamping force, often with a specified torque indicated so as to provide both that clamping force and control/prevent transverse
movement (the greatest contributor to "self-loosening") of the fastener. Obviously introducing lubricant between the bolt/nut and clamped component is contrary to that goal.

This effect is at its worse when the material of the nut or bolt head and the clamped component are similar as the lubricant serves only to add a layer of dissimilar material into a juncture that would otherwise have a higher static friction coefficient--use of high or extreme pressure lubricant would exacerbate this.

The nut or bolt head's tendency to "bind up" rotationally against the clamped component is part and parcel of torque retention--to a far greater degree than any self-locking nut would provide. This is why flanged head bolts and flanged nuts are more resistant to self-loosening, the greater area of contact as compared to a hex-faced bolt or nut increases the fastener's rotational resistance.

I think "The Bern" stated things concisely, you need to read up on friction, fasteners, clamping loads, etc...

--------------------------
FWIW (and sort of on-topic) in refreshing my memory on this topic I ran across a white paper showing that the plain ol' spring lock washers we all grew up with somewhat counter-intuitively promote self-loosing. It seems that in addition to adding yet another set of contact surfaces subject to the effects of repeated transverse forces they also block the bolt/nut from "self-tightening" should relative combined forces be inclined to promote same.

I suggested to Bern that he Needed to read up on Friction, Fasteners and Clamp loads before he made uninformed statements. Bern did not make that statement, I made the statement you have credited to Bern.

Lamson and Sessions one of the largest producers of Threaded fasteners in the world, Whom my Corporation has been a Distributor of their products since 1976, Has taught us a few things about  cap screws and their proper use.

A fastening system is simply a clamp, Stretching a fastener to provide the desired clamping force to prevent two connected elements moving in relation to one another.

I am sure this was covered at your MIT education.

Non lubricated or non washered systems may provide the desired torque reading, but not the desired clamping force.

Friction in the clamping assembly must be eliminated to produce the highest stretch to the fastener so that the desired clamping load is achieved.

This is accomplished with lubrication and the use of flat washers, Not necessarily lock washers.

To prevent looseness in our rear wheel, The Axle must be stretched so that the wheel cannot move separate from the axle, To do this at the low torque spec Honda has Specified. The washer face nut and the Axle threads must be clean and well lubricated.

My reference to lubrication applied to the threaded portion of a fastening system, Not between the portions being clamped as you have stated are incorrect and misleading as to what I have stated.

Other than the errors you have made, Thanks for your input.

Happy motoring Lloyd 193.
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:45 pm

I served my apprenticeship in the aircraft industry and we were told NEVER lubricate a thread before torquing it.
So unless a workshop manual actually states that it should be lubricated then it should not.

To suggest that lubricating threads is "normal practise" is wrong and potentially dangerous.

JB
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:52 pm

Quote :
Non lubricated or non washered systems may provide the desired torque reading, but not the desired clamping force.

Friction in the clamping assembly must be eliminated to produce the highest stretch to the fastener so that the desired clamping load is achieved.

This is accomplished with lubrication and the use of flat washers, Not necessarily lock washers.

Negative; I think you are mixing optimal design engineering concepts with the more mundane task of assembling and repairing products already engineered by someone else; where it is mostly always best to follow the original engineer(s)' recommendations.

In the latter world very few mechanical fastenings are designed to be torqued to their "highest stretch" (aka Torqued To Yield or angular torqued¹). They are rather selected to be tightened to a load sufficient to provide a desired clamping force--while keeping tensile load on the fastener within its elastic limits, allowing it to retain its initial dimensions and be reused.

Re: "eliminating" friction² in the clamping assembly;

It is not necessary and not desirable to do this IF the recommended torque value was calculated with an assumption and anticipation of the nominal friction of the fastener's threads being dry. Lubricating threads, nut and bolt faces, etc. that were expected by the design engineer to be dry will result in the fastener being tensioned beyond that engineer's desired value and perhaps beyond the its yield point rendering it non-reusable in a non-obvious way³, and possibly even beyond its shear point at which time it "shears" off--and in the case of blind studs causing bad words to be said while gathering the tools to drill it out.


----------------------------
¹ - Tightening procedures for angular torque (TTY) fasteners are rarely if ever specified as a single torque value. Typically a sequenced procedure of an tightening to a specified "snug" torque, then tightening it from that point in one or more angular increments.

A typical sequence would be as follows:

  • Tighten to 35 lb·ft;
  • Tighten another 90°;
  • Tighten a further 90°;


By attaining final "tightness" though degrees of rotation from a specific "snug" starting point instead of an applied torque value reduces the influence of friction to ensure exact clamping loads are applied.

² - If you have found a method to "eliminate" (and I know I am being "picky" here) friction you need to patent it, it will make you a zillionaire overnight and we'll all be on out way toward perpetual motion.

³ - I have seen many bolts and studs slightly deformed by being tightened beyond their yield point, causing binding and even breakage in subsequent use.
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:00 am

John,
Why not remove the axle nut and look to see if the collar is still there. Should be very simple and should not take very long. Shouldn't take more than 5 minutes.
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:56 am

lloyd193 wrote:
To prevent looseness in our rear wheel, The Axle must be stretched so that the wheel cannot move separate from the axle, To do this at the low torque spec Honda has Specified. The washer face nut and the Axle threads must be clean and well lubricated.

Really, it has already been pointed out in this thread that Honda DO NOT recommend lubricating the collar &/or nut, so are you going to persist in your erroneous theory (in which case you really should inform Honda about how they are misinforming owners) or revert to one of your posts (in another similar thread) .....

lloyd193 wrote:
Rear wheel nut Torque,  .... //....
Honda made no mistake in their service manual torque Specs,


Go on make a decision, you can't have it both ways bud scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:03 am

Will the gentlemen kindly stop sniping.

While personal opinions may vary, this is a very informative discussion which I hope continues based on FBI (that'd be Fact Based Information).

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:32 am

Hokey dokey bud ... FBI ... for those that may want to have a collar machined at a local 'shop, dimensions are ...

Outside diameter .. 31.95 mm (1.2575")
Inside diameter ....  22.08 mm (0.8690")
Height/Length .......  10mm       (0.3935")
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:44 pm

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:
Will the gentlemen kindly stop sniping.

While personal opinions may vary, this is a very informative discussion which I hope continues based on FBI (that'd be Fact Based Information).

Tim

You guys are free to lubricate or not lubricate your nuts as you Imagine it should be done. In the thousands of scooters I have serviced in 60 years, I have never had a rear axle nut come loose, All lubricated. You non nut lubricators are the ones writing in here about your loose wheel nuts. Continue doing things in your inexperienced methods and continue accumulating your ruined parts.

Happy motoring Lloyd 193.
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:09 pm

So you started servicing servicing scooters at 17, at this age on a previous and now locked topic, weren't you a pilot and a Chief Master Sergeant in the USAF?  scratch


Last edited by Meldrew on Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:33 pm

Nut still coming loose on my scooter which is still in use----just carry socket and small breaker bar at the ready.....check at stops.

Bike only has to make it 25 miles to shop where it will be traded in----I'll tell them it probably needs new axle nut.
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:15 pm

Meldrew wrote:
So you started servicing servicing scooters at 17, at this age on a previous and now locked topic, weren't you a pilot and a Chief Master Sergeant in the USAF?  scratch

Yep, what's more if you 'do the math' he got to be a CMS ...... 25 years ahead of his time jocolor jocolor
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:27 pm

I will apologise to Admin at this point, Lloyd is obviously not going to let this go, sorry but he's wrong on this & as long as I'm a member on here I will continue to correct his posts so that new members are not ill advised. If Admin think I should stop posting I will respect that no prob's, but would request that I'm allowed to remain until I can get my old pictorials sorted as to be a point of referance for years to come, photobucket will not allow me to download my own pictures, so I'm currently looking through old memory cards & hard drives trying to locate the relevant images.
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:32 pm

The Bern wrote:
Meldrew wrote:
So you started servicing servicing scooters at 17, at this age on a previous and now locked topic, weren't you a pilot and a Chief Master Sergeant in the USAF?  scratch

Yep, what's more if you 'do the math' he got to be a CMS ...... 25 years ahead of his time jocolor jocolor

More Comic relief from guys who cannot read, C.A.P. was an U.S.A.F. Auxiliary, Pilot in C.A.P. at 13.

Scooter Mechanic by 12, G.O.C. by 13, Civil Defense by 13, Intelligent at a young age.

Earned U.S.A.F. certificate of proficiency, Presented to me by General Nathan Twining at 16 years of age.

Familiar with Jealously and envy.

Not Disparaged by Retarded Military types.

Happy motoring Lloyd 193.
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:45 pm

lloyd193 wrote:

Not Disparaged by Retarded Military types.

Sleep Sleep Sleep What makes you think I have anything to do with Military scratch you really are a jocolor flower Sleep Sleep Sleep
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:57 pm

The Bern wrote:
lloyd193 wrote:

Not Disparaged by Retarded Military types.

Sleep Sleep Sleep  What makes you think I have anything to do with Military scratch  you really are a jocolor flower Sleep Sleep Sleep

Agreed, Military would not have you.
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PostSubject: Re: Rear Axle Nut becoming Loose   Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:18 pm

Knock it off or I'm going to send someone to time out!

Tim
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