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 Instability in wet weather

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DodgetheRog
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PostSubject: Instability in wet weather   Fri 15 Sep 2017, 06:30

Last Sunday evening I had to ride back from Heathrow airport in the rain. I had a 14kg bag bungeed on the pillion seat and set off in pretty bad weather - high winds and plenty of surface water. As I came out of the tunnel onto the M4 Spur up to the M4 proper, I tipped into the roundabout at sub 25mph and the front end just washed away from me. The whole bike shimmied before coming upright again.

At the next corner turning left onto the M4, it happened again! Slow speed, shallow lean angle and the whole front end just moved.

It was my first SWing ride in bad weather so I didn't really know what to expect but not THAT!

So, worn tyres? They don't look bad, plenty of tread left. I've replaced head bearings and fork seals with a 15w oil. Perhaps that? I dunno. I do know it scared the living daylights out of me.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Fri 15 Sep 2017, 06:40

Maybe it was just spilled diesel fuel on the roundabout and road, they tend to make your sphincter pucker up a bit. I'm glad you managed to get home safely.
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DodgetheRog
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Fri 15 Sep 2017, 06:44

I think the shock was more that in the dry, the SWing handles far better than you'd think for the longer wheelbase. I reduced my speed to what I thought was appropriate for the conditions but it obviously wasn't enough.

Being blown across three lanes of the M25 at one point was fun (not!) :D
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dekare
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Fri 15 Sep 2017, 07:50

Get a tire depth gauge and get a depth reading on the tread. Also check the date code on the tires. I understand older the tire, the harder the rubber gets. Let us know what you find.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Fri 15 Sep 2017, 08:30

Glad you kept it up and drove through it. We have a darn small contact patch for the power to weight ratio. I haven't ridden mine in the rain but have had the pucker factor in unseen sand and fine gravel.
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Scootypuff Snr
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Fri 15 Sep 2017, 09:21

Dodge

I think it's the road surfaces around Heathrow caused by stationary traffic & huge volumes.

Not long back I went to terminal 5 in pouring rain with lots of surface water & can only say the handling wasn't sure footed as usual (I'm aware of surface water and aqua planing)

As for wind IMO the silverwing is just one of those models that catches the breeze (my old ST1100 used to) wednesday crossing the QEll was like being in a strictly come dancing contest
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Fri 15 Sep 2017, 09:37

Intersections and roundabouts after a prolonged dry spelL then get a light rain are NASTY, even on 4 wheels.
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Fri 15 Sep 2017, 12:18

oldwingguy wrote:
Intersections and roundabouts after a prolonged dry spelL then get a light rain are NASTY, even on 4 wheels.

Increase tire pressure.

Happy motoring Lloyd 193. swing
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Fri 15 Sep 2017, 15:00

As mentioned above, and as most likely already know, after a dry spell roads can be slippy as all the crud floats to the surface. Roundabouts are even more excitable because crap can accumulate in the centre then wash out and vehicles are more likely to spill diesel etc when turning.
But do check your tyres too, the front wheel wears on the side not in the centre and the right (uk) wears most, not what you need on a roundabout.
You kept it upright though which means your riding instincts are ok.
Just stop trying to get your knee down on soggy roundabouts! :-)
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Fri 15 Sep 2017, 16:06

Most of my riding in scotland is on wet greasy roads, dry roads are a treat to be enjoyed and i try to make the most of them. My motto is 'if its wet, only apply power in upright position' also sounds daft but cold tyres make a diference, until mine have heat they are a nightmare in damp or wet conditions, when warm they are better but nothing near dry grip.
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Sat 16 Sep 2017, 22:03

Oil, spilled fuel and painted road surfaces are very slippery. Sand , rocks and other junk on roads Shocked

Brake Throttle going straight as possible. Real world never happens like that.

Got a little wet today. Good tires never slipped. I like MICH tires but don't last that long.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Sat 16 Sep 2017, 23:56

It also pays to eschew the front brake in wet or slippery conditions as well as going lightly on the rear to prevent much linked brake effort.
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Dave Weller
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Sun 17 Sep 2017, 06:39

I find the extra weight on the back does make the front go light, much more so than on the 3 motorcycles I own, also in the wind on the fairing does not help. If I get caught out in those conditions my experience helps, I was going up the Dartford crossing bridge and blown all over the place by very strong wind/rain, all you can do is adjust speed, lightly hold the grips, stay clear of the HGV's and get some clear road. Around Heathrow they have built up land to secure the airport, so you get strange conditions.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Sun 17 Sep 2017, 07:35

Around Heathrow they have built up land to secure the airport, so you get strange conditions. <<>> that sounds like riding in the area of our underpasses during a strong wind, that and the cuts they make out west. One moment you are fighting the wind then the moment of calm. Light grip on the handle bars sphincter grip on the seat for unpreparedness  Wink
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Sun 17 Sep 2017, 14:16

The Tacoma Narrows bridge in Washington spans across Puget Sound. The original bridge came down due to wind and it's design. The new bridge has two towers and a road bed with grating strips to reduce swaying by equalizing the pressure on both sides of the road bed. Riding past the towers can be an experience on a breezy day, with a bike you don't want to be on the grating strips as you come past the towers because the usual 35-40kt breeze suddenly stops and then just as suddenly returns as you go past the sheltering towers. On a windy, wet day it can be an experience on a motorcycle or scooter.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Sun 17 Sep 2017, 14:58

I drove over the Tacoma Narrows Bridge with Mrs M on our Washingston State and Oregon tour nearly seven years ago.

Have a look on YouTube, there's some fascinating old black and white newsreel clips from 1940 of "Galloping Gertie" the original Tacoma Narrows suspension bridge swaying violently in the wind before finally collapsing into Puget Sound.

If I remember correctly some brave soul went up onto the bridge and rescued a dog from that abandoned car. The dog showed it's gratitude by biting him!
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Sun 17 Sep 2017, 21:11

Yep, the car's owner tried to get the dog out of his car but the dog wouldn't come out of the car. Then a bit later a brave soul walked out on the bridge and tried and got bit for his effort. The dog went down with the car.
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Mon 18 Sep 2017, 20:00

Tacoma Narrows Bridge.

That's a good film of what the wind can do. Very old . Bridge became a wing and twisted apart.
Well worth watching if you never saw it.
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bikehiker
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Tue 19 Sep 2017, 23:02

Meldrew wrote:
Maybe it was just spilled diesel fuel on the roundabout and road, they tend to make your sphincter pucker up a bit. I'm glad you managed to get home safely.

I agree. It's amazing how rain (especially new rain) livens up those multicolored diesel/oil paths between car and truck tire loins. Gotta take it really slow making any turns in the rain. I don't think it has anything to do with any front end issue, especially if it rides ok on dry pavement.
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Wed 20 Sep 2017, 04:49

bikehiker wrote:
Meldrew wrote:
Maybe it was just spilled diesel fuel on the roundabout and road, they tend to make your sphincter pucker up a bit. I'm glad you managed to get home safely.

I agree.  It's amazing how rain (especially new rain) livens up those multicolored diesel/oil paths between car and truck tire loins.  Gotta take it really slow making any turns in the rain.  I don't think it has anything to do with any front end issue, especially if it rides ok on dry pavement.  


Nooooooooooo, the answer to ALL handling problems is too .....

lloyd193 wrote:
oldwingguy wrote:
Intersections and roundabouts after a prolonged dry spelL then get a light rain are NASTY, even on 4 wheels.

Increase tire pressure.

Happy motoring Lloyd 193.

Well, I suppose we have to at least give him points for being consistant, wrong, but consistant
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Thu 21 Sep 2017, 09:21

The Bern wrote:
bikehiker wrote:
Meldrew wrote:
Maybe it was just spilled diesel fuel on the roundabout and road, they tend to make your sphincter pucker up a bit. I'm glad you managed to get home safely.

I agree.  It's amazing how rain (especially new rain) livens up those multicolored diesel/oil paths between car and truck tire loins.  Gotta take it really slow making any turns in the rain.  I don't think it has anything to do with any front end issue, especially if it rides ok on dry pavement.  


Nooooooooooo, the answer to ALL handling problems is too .....

lloyd193 wrote:
oldwingguy wrote:
Intersections and roundabouts after a prolonged dry spelL then get a light rain are NASTY, even on 4 wheels.

Increase tire pressure.

Happy motoring Lloyd 193.

Well, I suppose we have to at least give him points for being consistant, wrong, but consistant

More advise on your Silverwing from a man who does not know where the coolant reservoir is located!

Happy motoring Lloyd 193.
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Thu 21 Sep 2017, 09:56

DodgetheRog wrote:
Last Sunday evening I had to ride back from Heathrow airport in the rain. I had a 14kg bag bungeed on the pillion seat and set off in pretty bad weather - high winds and plenty of surface water. As I came out of the tunnel onto the M4 Spur up to the M4 proper, I tipped into the roundabout at sub 25mph and the front end just washed away from me. The whole bike shimmied before coming upright again.

At the next corner turning left onto the M4, it happened again! Slow speed, shallow lean angle and the whole front end just moved.

It was my first SWing ride in bad weather so I didn't really know what to expect but not THAT!

So, worn tyres? They don't look bad, plenty of tread left. I've replaced head bearings and fork seals with a 15w oil. Perhaps that? I dunno. I do know it scared the living daylights out of me.

Black ice, As freshly wetted pavement is referred to here in the states is extremely Dangerous. Contaminates on the road surface mixed with water Are as slick as ice. Extreme care in riding these surfaces is called for.

Not leaning your machine, Greatly reduced speed, Gentle breaking, Maintaining proper inflation in your Tires, Whatever you decide that should be.

Keeping in mind that a smaller contact patch provides a higher Pounds per square inch pressure, Forcing liquids out faster for added contact with the road surface, Though the size of the contact patch is reduced, Contact is increased thru higher pounds per square inch loading, Basic Physics.

Happy and safe motoring Lloyd 193.
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Thu 21 Sep 2017, 10:04

lloyd193 wrote:
The Bern wrote:
bikehiker wrote:
Meldrew wrote:
Maybe it was just spilled diesel fuel on the roundabout and road, they tend to make your sphincter pucker up a bit. I'm glad you managed to get home safely.

I agree.  It's amazing how rain (especially new rain) livens up those multicolored diesel/oil paths between car and truck tire loins.  Gotta take it really slow making any turns in the rain.  I don't think it has anything to do with any front end issue, especially if it rides ok on dry pavement.  


Nooooooooooo, the answer to ALL handling problems is too .....

lloyd193 wrote:
oldwingguy wrote:
Intersections and roundabouts after a prolonged dry spelL then get a light rain are NASTY, even on 4 wheels.

Increase tire pressure.

Happy motoring Lloyd 193.

Well, I suppose we have to at least give him points for being consistant, wrong, but consistant

More advise on your Silverwing from a man who does not know where the coolant reservoir is located!


Oh dear you Oylld. It seems you are also guilty of misreading posts, look again bud I offered no advice at all, I meerly made an observation of the advice YOU offered.

Anyone reading that thread will already have seen that I posted my embarresment at misreading your post, now then, would you like to do likewise ??

Just as a side note ...
Before offering ... Increase tyre pressure, it might have been prudent of you to ask the pressure they were already inflated to Wink


Last edited by The Bern on Thu 21 Sep 2017, 10:17; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : that not this)
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Thu 21 Sep 2017, 10:14

DodgetheRog wrote:

So, worn tyres? They don't look bad, plenty of tread left.

Check the manufacture date bud (it's on the sidewall of the tyre) the rubber compound will deteriorate with age, iirc the recommended life expectancy is about 5 years
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Thu 21 Sep 2017, 10:38

The Bern wrote:
lloyd193 wrote:
The Bern wrote:
bikehiker wrote:
Meldrew wrote:
Maybe it was just spilled diesel fuel on the roundabout and road, they tend to make your sphincter pucker up a bit. I'm glad you managed to get home safely.

I agree.  It's amazing how rain (especially new rain) livens up those multicolored diesel/oil paths between car and truck tire loins.  Gotta take it really slow making any turns in the rain.  I don't think it has anything to do with any front end issue, especially if it rides ok on dry pavement.  


Nooooooooooo, the answer to ALL handling problems is too .....

lloyd193 wrote:
oldwingguy wrote:
Intersections and roundabouts after a prolonged dry spelL then get a light rain are NASTY, even on 4 wheels.

Increase tire pressure.

Happy motoring Lloyd 193.

Well, I suppose we have to at least give him points for being consistant, wrong, but consistant

More advise on your Silverwing from a man who does not know where the coolant reservoir is located!


Oh dear you Oylld. It seems you are also guilty of misreading posts, look again bud I offered no advice at all, I meerly made an observation of the advice YOU offered.

Anyone reading that thread will already have seen that I posted my embarresment at misreading your post, now then, would you like to do likewise ??

Just as a side note ...
Before offering ... Increase tyre pressure, it might have been prudent of you to ask the pressure they were already inflated to Wink

We use the word Insane in the U.S., Not Oylid.

Lloyd193.
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MikeO
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Thu 21 Sep 2017, 11:05

I hesitate to state the what-to-me-is obvious in reply to the statement: a smaller contact patch provides a higher Pounds per square inch pressure, Forcing liquids out faster for added contact with the road surface, Though the size of the contact patch is reduced, Contact is increased thru higher pounds per square inch loading, Basic Physics.

It may be the case if considering a basic rubber tube but I am sure tyre manufacturers build into their tyres something a little more sophisticated.
The tyre 'works' properly if inflated to the correct pressure and is less-efficient when pressures are raised or lowered.
It's common sense -to me at any rate.
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Thu 21 Sep 2017, 11:15

MikeO wrote:
I hesitate to state the what-to-me-is obvious in reply to the statement: a smaller contact patch provides a higher Pounds per square inch pressure, Forcing liquids out faster for added contact with the road surface, Though the size of the contact patch is reduced, Contact is increased thru higher pounds per square inch loading, Basic Physics.

It may be the case if considering a basic rubber tube but I am sure tyre manufacturers build into their tyres something a little more sophisticated.
The tyre 'works' properly if inflated to the correct pressure and is less-efficient when pressures are raised or lowered.
It's common sense -to me at any rate.

In order to have traction, The rubber must contact the road.

Happy safe Motoring Lloyd 193.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Thu 21 Sep 2017, 11:25

lloyd193 wrote:
Black ice, As freshly wetted pavement is referred to here in the states is extremely Dangerous. Contaminates on the road surface mixed with water Are as slick as ice. Extreme care in riding these surfaces is called for.

You're just confusing the topic, black ice has an entirely different meaning to UK members. it's an unseen frozen road surface hazard associated with Winter. A variety of conditons cause that I won't go into here. Notice the words road surface? we don't ride or drive on pavements and never have, A pavement is a pedestrian walkway, or a sidewalk to you.

A freshly wetted 'pavement'/ road isn't dangerous at all, it's been raining here in York for the last couple of hours and it's just rain. I've been in to the city centre, there's no cars, trucks, or buses sliding about, it's just a another wet day.

Now take a hot dry spell of a couple of weeks on roads that carry heavy traffic, when it first starts to rain road surfaces can become a bit slippery, as the usual layer of traffic film comes to the road surface, but it soon gets flushed away with further rain and the movement of traffic. So obviously extra care needs to be taken on roundabouts. No one stops to pump up their tyres either.

Another factor is the type of road surface you're riding on, some asphalt is more abrasive and grippier than others. You can hear the change in the coarseness of the road surface as you ride over different sections. It's also different riding over concrete 'slab' surfaces and cobbled streets.

Rain grooves on European road surfaces prone to flooding can cause instability, I've been on a few German autobahns going to MZ rallies when it was quite scary riding over them on a skinny tyred lightweight bike. On a larger tyred bike or maxi scooter, you barely feel it.


Last edited by Meldrew on Thu 21 Sep 2017, 11:37; edited 1 time in total
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Thu 21 Sep 2017, 11:31

Meldrew wrote:
lloyd193 wrote:
Black ice, As freshly wetted pavement is referred to here in the states is extremely Dangerous. Contaminates on the road surface mixed with water Are as slick as ice. Extreme care in riding these surfaces is called for.

You're just confusing the topic, black ice to a UK rider has an entirely different meaning, it's an unseen frozen road surface hazard associated with Winter.  You notice I said road surface, a pavement to us is a pedestrian walkway, or a sidewalk to you.

A freshly wetted 'pavement'/ road isn't dangerous at all, it's been raining here in York for the last couple of hours and it's just rain. I've been in to the city centre, there's no cars, trucks, or buses sliding about, it's just a wet day.

Now take a hot dry spell of a couple of weeks and then it rains, road surfaces can become a bit slippery when it first started raining, as the usual layer of traffic film on the road comes to the road surface, but it soon gets flushed away with further rain and the movement of traffic. So obviously extra care needs to be taken on roundabouts.

Another factor is the type of road surface you're riding on, some asphalt is more abrasive and grippier than others. You can hear the change in the coarseness of the road surface as you ride over different sections. It's also different riding over concrete 'slab' surfaces and cobbled streets.

Rain grooves on European road surfaces prone to flooding can cause instability, I've been on a few German autobahns going to MZ rallies when it was quite scary riding over them on a skinny tyred lightweight bike. On a larger tyred bike or maxi scooter, you barely feel it.


OK lloyd 193.
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Thu 21 Sep 2017, 12:44


In order to have traction, The rubber must contact the road.

How very dare you!

Your remark is both patronizing and, to me, offensive.

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would take as read the fact that the tyre is in contact with the road.

I resist the temptation to delete your post/s but say publically that it's what they deserve.
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Thu 21 Sep 2017, 12:48

MikeO wrote:

In order to have traction, The rubber must contact the road.

How very dare you!

Your remark is both patronizing and, to me, offensive.

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would take as read the fact that the tyre is in contact with the road.

I resist the temptation to delete your post/s but say publically that it's what they deserve.

Thank for your feedback Lloyd 193.
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Thu 21 Sep 2017, 15:16

lloyd193 wrote:
The Bern wrote:


Oh dear you Oylld. It seems you are also guilty of misreading posts, look again bud I offered no advice at all, I meerly made an observation of the advice YOU offered.

Anyone reading that thread will already have seen that I posted my embarresment at misreading your post, now then, would you like to do likewise ??

Just as a side note ...
Before offering ... Increase tyre pressure, it might have been prudent of you to ask the pressure they were already inflated to Wink

We use the word Insane in the U.S., Not Oylid.

Lloyd193.

There you go agaian Oylld, missreading my post again Rolling Eyes that's twice in one thread Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Thu 21 Sep 2017, 15:31

Enough, gentlemen.

Tim

scratch Oylid...?
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exavid
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Age : 74
Location : Medford, Oregon
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Registration date : 2009-07-17

PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Fri 22 Sep 2017, 00:16

Any relation to Olive Oyl?
https://www.facebook.com/oliveoylloves
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steve_h80
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Number of posts : 341
Location : Teesdale, UK
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Mon 25 Sep 2017, 14:02

So the really important question now is... what is an oylid?
Do I need to add it to my lexion of useful, but obscure, insults?
I'm always keen to learn something new.
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Instability in wet weather   Mon 25 Sep 2017, 14:12

steve_h80 wrote:
So the really important question now is... what is an oylid?
Do I need to add it to my lexion of useful, but obscure, insults?
I'm always keen to learn something new.

Dunno bud study as far as I can see it's the result of lloyd misreading my mis-spelling of his name to oylld
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